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Holy Cow - shoes are evil? (Read 1291 times)

Scout7


    That's a bit of a non-sequitur. I agree with you that it has everything to do with proper training. But shoes and form are important aspect of training, and in my opinion lots of people get these aspects wrong. If it has "nothing to do with shoes", then why bother spending money on specific running shoes at all? Avoiding "overuse" is not as simple as just running the proper number of miles. How you run those miles matters. Someone running all their miles on cambered roads may suffer debilitating overuse injuries in the muscles and joints that are forced to compensate for the slope. All I'm arguing is that many running shoes are like that cambered road, subtly changing your form and forcing some parts of your body to work harder than they otherwise would. Form matters, and shoes matter, and shoes have a profound affect on form. None of this is even debatable. We could certainly differ over how shoes and form matter, but surely you don't really believe they're irrelevant.
    My argument is that the PROPER shoes do not cause an issue. It's not the shoe itself that's bad. It's wearing the wrong shoe. I also believe that, while form matters, there is no universally correct form, and to think so is folly. This is why I have always disagreed with the ideas about cadence or foot strike. Most people probably worry about the wrong things, and I think the shoe issue is one of them. If people have an injury directly tied to wearing shoes, then they should change their shoes. Otherwise, I'd look elsewhere for solving the issue. The fact is, the majority of people develop injuries from improper training, not shoes.
    zoom-zoom


    rectumdamnnearkilledem

      Funny, I saw something on TV this weekend about that very theory. Makes sense to me. Although I doubt they were hunting wild game down asphalt littered with rocks, glass, scrap metal, pieces of wire, garbage, tar, cigarette butts, empty beer cans and bottles, washing machines, etc.
      And ice. I have cut myself on ice before (granted, it was a cube from my fridge, not the outdoor variety). I don't think nordic hunting types did much barefoot hunting. I'm not planning to do any barefoot running any time soon, either (aside from maybe some speedwork drills on grass, which sounds kind of appealing)...in addition to glass and rusty nails we have a lot of those rough chip sealed roads that are a nice surface for running on, but with a shoe...there are some really sharp little stones in that stuff. And it gets HELLA hot in Aug.

      Getting the wind knocked out of you is the only way to

      remind your lungs how much they like the taste of air.    

           ~ Sarah Kay

      JakeKnight


        Here's that video. Just awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo But the irony is his shoes. Look at 3:35-3:45. Not exactly a minimalist, is he? I'm pretty sure those are a recycled slick black pair of circa-1989 Air Jordans. Complete with pump.

        E-mail: eric.fuller.mail@gmail.com
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          Here's that video. Just awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo But the irony is his shoes. Look at 3:35-3:45. Not exactly a minimalist, is he? I'm pretty sure those are a recycled slick black pair of circa-1989 Air Jordans. Complete with pump.
          Talk about being the big man on campus. As a reward for this amazing feat, I'm guessing he gets to carry the smallest piece of the carcass for the eight hour run back to the village. Shocked

          E.J.
          Greater Lowell Road Runners
          Cry havoc and let slip the dawgs of war!

          May the road rise to meet you, may the wind be always at your back, may the sun shine warm upon your SPF30, may the rains fall soft upon your sweat-wicking hat, and until you hit the finish line may The Flying Spaghetti Monster hold you in the hollow of His Noodly Appendage.

          JakeKnight


            Talk about being the big man on campus. As a reward for this amazing feat, I'm guessing he gets to carry the smallest piece of the carcass for the eight hour run back to the village. Shocked
            That's what we all wondered the first time it was posted. Great. You ran for umpteen miles and got the gazelle. Now what're you gonna do, smart guy?

            E-mail: eric.fuller.mail@gmail.com
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            Just Be

              Not sure if it's already been said or not, but I can tell you all one thing from my own experience... running barefoot is the best way to make sure you're not planting your foot for the support phase ahead of your center of mass! I tried running barefoot on cement as a dare in my younger days and after about 1/4 of a mile I had changed my form significantly. I ran for roughly 1 mile and when I got back I needed to ask a friend to get me a roll of paper towels so that I could walk on the carpet without getting it all bloody. Tongue To this day, I believe that my form is more economical because of the adjustments that I made that day of barefoot running, but I still run with shoes and socks on, unless I'm running on the shore during low tide and on smooth sand.
              zoom-zoom


              rectumdamnnearkilledem

                Here's that video. Just awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo
                One of my favorite classes in college was a Cultural Anthro. course. We spent several weeks studying the San/!Kung (same people featured in "The Gods Must Be Crazy"). One of the documentaries we watched showed them tracking an injured giraffe for DAYS. But they have little choice. The only source of protein for these people is wild game, at least this was the case when the study of these folks was done, back in the 60s or 70s. I think they do a lot more farming, now. At that time their diets were mainly game and roots that provided carbs and water. I'm guessing hunting still provides most of their protein needs.

                Getting the wind knocked out of you is the only way to

                remind your lungs how much they like the taste of air.    

                     ~ Sarah Kay


                over 9000!!!

                  just my 2 cents again... being able to go barefoot is relative to each person. we all have different types of feet and biomechanics. it is simply just not possible for some. but i believe it is possible for the majority. i personally know someone that went from wearing orthotics to no shoes at all. his feet began to strengthen on their own and he doesn't have injuries anymore. in truth, the biggest obsticle is ppls mental outlook. when someone against barefooting talks about it, they speak from a stance of fear. i.e. "but what if you step on some glass, we are not meant to run on asphalt, i am not built like a kenyan, ect.." this mindset reminds me of a story Dr. Wayne Dyer once told. He talked about one time when he went to Chicago and met up with a lady that was going to show him around. She had a cold and she was caughing and snotty. On the trip Wayne mentioned that he had not had a cold for 20 years. She didn't believe it and said that everyone gets colds and that she gets a couple each year and its normal. He said that if you expect it to happen then it will. Later he joked that whenever a cold bug lands on him he tells it that he is not a hospitable place for the bug to live and he wont allow it to make him sick.... but he knows this lady in Chicago it should go see! The moral of the story is this... When i go out on a barefoot run around my city, i am not fearful of rocks and glass... barefooting hightens your sense of mindfulness. I am not worried that I am not meant to run on concrete or asphalt, I just run relaxed and fluid. Barefoot running does take time to get used to. Its like starting running all over again. But I love it! Its fun and I havent cut my foot or gained any injuries. Seriously, the way ppl talk about "OMG I cant run barefoot, I will step on some glass and cut up my foot!!" Where do these people live? Are all your sidewalks and streets covered in glass everywhere??!! There is always some glass laying around, but I am mindfull when I run and have not ever puntured my feet yet. Not that it wont ever happen. The main point is that my mind is tough and therefore my body is tough. It takes a strong mind to run barefoot. If you want to run in shoes, then run in shoes. I dont think everyone should go bare. If your mindset is that going barefoot is the boogie man... lol then hide in your shoes and he cant get you... As for those who are more open minded and curious about the wonders of barefoot running... Don't listen to those sissies. Try it out. I assure you that glass is not covering every square inch of your city like a bunch of tiny ninjas employed by shoe companies ready to jump out, cut you, and say They told you you would cut yourself on glass!!! the end
                  JakeKnight


                    It takes a strong mind to run barefoot.
                    Um, yeah. That's one way to look at it. Now that your 2 cents has turned into $42.49 ... let me ask the obvious question: why do you care so much what other runners doing? It works for you? Great. But why the need to proselytize? (That's "preach" for those of you who graduated from places like the University of Michigan). There are certain topics in running that always have this tone. One of them is the endless Chi/Pose debate. Another big one is this minimalist/barefoot debate. Frankly, I find it interesting. I plan to experiment with it myself this summer, since I'm open minded enough to try anything that might help me. But - and I mean no offense- a lot of you barefoot folks make this sound one heck of a lot like a religion. Just like the Chi/Pose people do. And just like all fundamentalists, you essentially attack "non-believers." It does not require a strong mind to go barefoot - it requires a strong foot. It does not require a weak mind to wear shoes. It requires a little common sense. Like those other subjects, the true believers get way too overzealous, and get defensive about "winning" arguments. And I think that, more than the actual subject matter itself, tends to create a little resistance and backlash.

                    E-mail: eric.fuller.mail@gmail.com
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                    over 9000!!!

                      I totally see your point. This is one of the reasons I even come to running forums... The endless debates. Here is one senario. Runner A starts a thread called. "is it possible to run barefoot and be safe" Runner B replies... "no... barefooting is dumb and you will step on glass" end of thead. Wouldn't that be boring? So why do I care about what other runenrs do? Well, i only want to return the teasing that the shoe-clad runners give us. lol But mainly I want to put in my ideas/opinoins on the subject for those who are wondering if it is possible to barefoot run. For those who dont want to, I dont care if they do. yes some of us sound religous. why? its sort of a defense mechanism at this point. BF running is a small movement at the present. what amazes me though, is how some people get down right offensive about it when you tell them that you barefoot run. i just mention that i do it sometimes and non-barefoot runners will almost shout at me all the reasons that it is "bad" for you... blows my mind. so yes, i feel strongly about it and i think it is healthy to have these debates. one day we will all hold hands and appreciate our various ways to run. but at the moment the BF community needs a few ppl to stand up and fight for our right to be unconventional. it needs strongly opinionated ppl like me and it also needs well-spoken and calm ppl like Ed4 if you dont want to hear anything about BF running. then stop reading these threads. its not like I was flaming a thread about what is the right kind of shoe to wear... Big grin
                      Scout7


                        I don't think the debate is that running barefoot is bad for anyone. The debate here is that shoes are bad for you. Personally, I think shoes in and of themselves are not bad for anyone, and people can run in shoes with zero problems. This thought includes the assumption that the person is wearing the correct shoes for his/her feet and mechanics. Unfortunately, this is where people disagree.


                        Why is it sideways?

                          what amazes me though, is how some people get down right offensive about it when you tell them that you barefoot run. i just mention that i do it sometimes and non-barefoot runners will almost shout at me all the reasons that it is "bad" for you... blows my mind.
                          It's not the barefooting that gets people riled up. As JK points out, it's the preaching that bothers them. Though it might be effective for rallying the already committed, taking a dogmatic stance is not very good for creating converts because believe it or not some folks are happy running with their shoes on. And if they decide to try out barefoot running, it won't be because you call them weak; it will be because you show them that barefoot running opens up new dimensions to a practice they already enjoy.


                          over 9000!!!

                            I don't think the debate is that running barefoot is bad for anyone. The debate here is that shoes are bad for you. Personally, I think shoes in and of themselves are not bad for anyone, and people can run in shoes with zero problems. This thought includes the assumption that the person is wearing the correct shoes for his/her feet and mechanics. Unfortunately, this is where people disagree.
                            I dont disagree here. I am not debating that everyone that wears shoes will have problems. Actually I never had problems with wearing shoes. Oddly, my reason for going to barefoot was because I could never find a pair of shoes that let my large pinky toes wiggle around enough. Thats when i found the vibrams. Again, i just wanted to say that barefoot running is possible to do. some ppl even do ultramarathons barefoot. and i mean regular white people not just africans. i.e barefootted.com
                            C-R


                              one day we will all hold hands and appreciate our various ways to run.
                              I smell a kum biyah in the karaoke machine. Seriously, the reason I threw the thread was that it was an interesting idea to debate. I run in minimal shoes but there is no way my DW could pull that off. So - different strokes for different folks - and when asked about my shoes, I merely tell others what and why from my perspective. No sales pitch from me. Getting better at anything requires testing and experiments to find what works best for you - IMHO. And the more information, the better your test or trials. Enough sermonizing (I can't spell proselytyie). I still like my shoes but I am going to the beach this summer and plan to run some barefoot there. Hopefully I wont step on any beer can tabs. Wink


                              "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                              "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

                              http://ncstake.blogspot.com/


                              Why is it sideways?

                                some ppl even do ultramarathons barefoot. and i mean regular white people not just africans. i.e barefootted.com
                                I don't know if this guy's so regular. But he is white, I'll give you that. Wink
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