Sub-20 Goal for 5k (2012) (Read 5408 times)

    I need to figure out how to handle the part of the race from 2 - 2.7 because that's where I lost it.

     

    First: congrats on a good race.

     

    My experience is it takes practice racing to know how far you can push it, but it also helps to have competition. I had a breakthrough during a July 4th race where someone was trying to run me down for the last mile of a 5 mile race. I didn't let him pass me, but I was dry heaving on the sidelines as he walked up. Ever since then my focus has been to hit my goal or throw-up trying.

     

    In August I was 8 seconds short of my goal in a mile and I felt like I didn't try hard enough since I didn't throw up. In September I hit my goal in a 15k, but had a couple of heaves at mile 8.

     

    All of that is to say, from mile 2 - 2.7 run until you puke.

     

    --

    Nashville, TN

     

      Thanks. This is actually pretty interesting to me as I don't think I've ever really come close to the "I'm going to puke" feeling, except when I'm already sick. I'm not sure if I know how to get my body to that point. The limiting factor in the third mile of a 5k seems to be my legs, mostly - my quads start burning really bad and I just can't get any turnover. I definitely do need to push through this somehow, and maybe then the puking will come? Haha.

         The limiting factor in the third mile of a 5k seems to be my legs, mostly - my quads start burning really bad and I just can't get any turnover....

         

        Interesting - for me it's always the lungs in a 5k - I just can't breathe any harder. Legs are not a problem (marathons are a different story).

          I agree it is the lungs but moreso for me it is the sick feeling as I push push push especially last mile and specifically last 1/2 mile. I feel I can gut out the legs and lungs part but I do not want to puke. That is the only thing that will cause me to back off and it is just about every 5K race.

           

          In a 5K race, when it is cold (below 28 degrees), I feel my effort is there but my legs simply won't go as fast as I want or need them too - too much competition for blood flow to keep my core warm.  The result is a slower pace but not by choice or effort.

          Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

            Hmm, this is really interesting to me. I'm wondering if this is a strength/muscular issue for me? With my legs tiring before my lungs, I mean. Is this something that I could address with steep hill sprints or something? Maybe if I could push my legs harder, I could get to the point where my breathing gets really labored, which could mean that I've pushed through to the next effort level? Just guessing really, I'm getting desperate to go under 20 here and I feel that I'm right on the verge. Just need some kind of breakthrough.


            Super Pro Lurker

              Strength training has been shown to improve 5k time in highly trained runners without improving VO2 max: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10233114 It's a small study but it's probably worth it to add in strength training if you're not doing it already. It will probably at least help you avoid injury, at least according to my anecdotal evidence. 

              As far as different types of fitness goes there is this running times article: http://runningtimes.com/print.aspx?articleid=17798 which I thought was interesting. Maybe you fit into one of the categories of lagging fitness?

                I do strength train, usually twice a week - I'm just lazy about logging it here. I do the usual stuff: pull-ups, bench press, squats, single leg deadlifts, various core exercises, rows. I checked out the link and based on the descriptions there, my neuromuscular fitness is lagging. I'm really weak on hills and although I'm getting better at short (200-800) intervals, my legs tend to feel really, really bad during them. I feel really strong during tempos and longer repeats (1000-1600), but something like a set of 400s will make my legs feel like they are on fire, even if I'm hitting my paces. I'm going to add some strides and uphill running into my routine and see how that goes.


                MoBramExam

                  I'm going to add some strides and uphill running into my routine and see how that goes.

                   

                  Strides...Yes.  Hills...would not "add" them, rather, substitute them for another workout.

                   

                  In the grand scheme of things, your base miles have not been up very long (only a few months).  Patience and give it some time.

                   

                  About your fade in the 3rd mile, here are some observations of your running log:

                   

                  1) Too much time spent on 5K pace intervals for current base.  Let strides and hills hold your speed.

                  2)  You do a lot of 30:00 to 40:00 minute runs.  Work a couple of those a week up to 60:00 minutes, even if you have to slow down.  Take a day off, or cut the other easy / recovery runs down to 20:00 - 30:00.

                  3) Your Long Run is MIA.  Get religious about doing that once a week or every 8-10 days max.

                  4) Do some of your tempo runs at marathon pace (7:50-8:10).  Ease into it and work to stretch it out to 30:00 minutes, 40:00 minutes, or more over time.  This can also be incorporated into your long run.

                   

                  Again, just some observations and suggestions.  You are well on your way to your goal. Good luck! 

                   



                    MoBram - Thanks for the suggestions! I agree with a lot of what you're saying, especially #2 - the 30-45 minute runs are the norm because I do them during my lunch break for logistical reasons. Now that I've been at 35-40 mpw for a while I'd like to up my mileage, though, so I've been trying to figure out how to rearrange my schedule so that I can run either before or after work instead. I think that I'll end up moving most of my running to the evenings, and doing 6-8 miles every weekday. I ran 50-60 mpw for a couple of years in 2008-2009 and had some success with that (18:32 5k), but then I got injured and didn't really run for a year and a half, so I've been trying to get back to where I was this year. I think if I can get back up to 50 mpw consistently, that would be great.

                     

                    It's interesting that you say I'm doing too much 5k pace work. I had added that in after reading Hudson and getting the impression that I wasn't doing enough of it (really any at all). Are you saying that I should I cut the speedwork (in the form of intervals) completely and stick to tempos, hills, and strides until I have a bigger base? I guess that would make sense for the winter anyway, since I won't really be racing again until March or so after my final race on November 11. So my weeks would have daily ~60 minute runs (a couple w/ strides after), 1 short/fast tempo or a hill workout, and 1 long run w/ a few miles at MP? How does that sound? I think I could probably bump up to 45-50 mpw pretty quickly and hold it at 50 through the winter.


                    MoBramExam

                      In "Hudson" speak, you appear to be more in the Aerobic Support Training stage of your comeback.  The 5K and 3K intervals are part of the Specific-Endurance Training.  My fear, looking at your running log, was that at this stage, they are having the effect of running you into the ground (especially since you run every day) and are not allowing you to absorb your tempo runs.

                       

                      If you have Hudson's Run Faster book, the Aerobic Support Training in Chapter 3.  The primary cause of your mile three fade is detailed there.

                       

                      (Disclaimer -- I am a Lydiard guy.  Hudson has some good stuff, but personally, I would break apart in 10 different ways if I tried to follow his plans too close.)

                       

                      If you are not racing again until March, you have four months to work with.  Your general plan sounds good.  When you say "hill workout", that could mean hill repeats or just doing everyday runs through hills.  If you are going to be doing strictly hill repeats, you could afford another 4-6 weeks of strictly base-building and working up the length of your long runs, tempos, MPs, and easys before starting hills.

                       

                      If you are just talking about doing runs over hills, those are great anytime.  I do almost all my intervals, tempo runs and MP runs on hilly streets.  Love to mix it up and it teaches effort, pacing, and mental focus.  Also, it causes you to approach your intervals and tempo runs "philosophically".  The same way you would approach a race.  For example, I hear all the time, "I want to run a sub-20 5K and I am going to go out at 6:20."  Really?  What if the first mile is all uphill, or into a 15 mph headwind on race day??  In other words, you learn to run today's workout or race in today's conditions, and have the confidence you will execute it to the best of your ability.

                       

                      Personally, I think you could break 20:00 any time now on long runs, HM / FM tempos, easy runs, and strides alone.  You running resume is solid.  Time will get you back there and smart training will get you back there quicker and injury free.

                       



                        Hmm, this is really interesting to me. I'm wondering if this is a strength/muscular issue for me? With my legs tiring before my lungs, I mean. Is this something that I could address with steep hill sprints or something? Maybe if I could push my legs harder, I could get to the point where my breathing gets really labored, which could mean that I've pushed through to the next effort level? Just guessing really, I'm getting desperate to go under 20 here and I feel that I'm right on the verge. Just need some kind of breakthrough.

                         

                        Others have hinted at this, but I think what you need most is aerobic development. If your legs can't use enough oxygen to really tax your heart and lungs then you mostly need to do aerobic training to improve your ability to use more oxygen.

                         

                        So - more easy running - work on volume at comfortable paces. That's not to say you should ignore speed work entirely, but that's not the main issue.

                         

                        You're really close - so it could happen any time. If you can then race more often.

                         

                        Finally - if you don't already then get some racing flats to race in (and for your interval work). I don't know for sure that it makes a real physical difference, but believe it and the placebo effect will work! Oh - and by the way - everyone knows that day-glo orange racing flats are faster than other colours - I have two pairs Smile

                         

                        (No doubt someone will be along to disagree in a minute.)

                          MoBram: Ah, I think I know what you're saying re: Hudson. That makes sense. I have the book at home so I will re-read that chapter when I get home tonight.

                           

                          When I say "hill workout" I mostly mean hill repeats. I live in Philly and my usual running routes are almost totally flat. There is a good hill to do workouts on but other than that I'm at a loss, which is too bad. After my race on November 11, I'll do a month or so of easy running + strides/tempos and then add a weekly hill session. I'm thinking that a long run of 12-13 would be good at 50mpw? Thanks for your help and encouragement. I'm hoping that I can stay injury-free and have a solid 2013.

                           

                          pr100: OK, that is really helpful. I wasn't thinking of it as an aerobic development issue for some reason, but it makes total sense the way you explained it. I'm definitely going to work on getting the volume up over the winter. I do have some racing flats - like 3 pairs Shocked because I am obsessed with shoes. I got a pair of Saucony Grid Type A5s and they feel so light and fast!

                            So there has been a small change of plans, I think. I was planning to race this coming Sunday (for my final race of the year), but I've been really sick all week. I don't think I'll be in top form by then, and I kind of don't want to stress my body with racing. However, I really want to make one more serious sub-20 attempt this year, so I'm looking at races in early December. That would give me 3 weeks from this weekend to train. I had been planning to be in 'base mode' during this time, as discussed above - basically just building mileage, doing some strides + tempos. Do you guys think this is still the best course of action, or should I throw in some interval/race pace work to stay sharp? I'm trying to figure out how to utilize this time to run the best race possible. I definitely understand that, long-term, the mileage and aerobic work is what I need, but I want to make sure I won't lose the speed I have in the next 3 weeks if I'm not doing 5x1000 at goal pace and stuff like that. Thanks for any advice!

                              First,as far as I can tell, you're training well, you race well, and you have no issue!   Once you break 20, I suspect you'll be doing it routinely.

                               

                              See how you feel towards the weekend, maybe you can do both races.  You wont lose any speed over 3 weeks.  Staying healthy and motivated are the most important. 

                               

                              Two thoughts on how to include more quality without adding "interval days" at the track.   One suggestion is to build pace over your longest run, and finish stronger than you typically might do.  

                               

                              Second, I like to add a fartlek day each week when not racing.  I go in with a simple plan for the run (eg 10 short pickups during a 6-7 miler, or maybe 5-6 longer pickups) and just run to a set point ignoring the watch.  Its a fun/easy way to keep some speed in to a less structured routine.

                               

                              Sub 20 is yours.

                                Thanks, lagwagon. That's reassuring. I guess I'll wait and see how I feel on Saturday before I make the final call about the race. I'm just worried because my last few runs have felt so hard! But it's possible that I'll feel a lot better by the weekend.

                                 

                                I like both of your suggestions. Those are two things that I very rarely do but I can see how they'd be beneficial.