1234

Frank Shorter Quote...Inspiring or Depressing? (Read 1985 times)


Just a dude.

     

    Arthur Lydiard used to always say that, instead of looking at what Kiplagat or Mutai or Haile does in training; look at what they were doing 10 or 15 years BEFORE.  It almost freightens me to read some of the comments on a popular running forum where all they talk about is what those world beating Kenyans do NOW; that they don't run weekend long run or that they do all quality and race-pace and all that.  They sure as hell weren't doing that 10 years prior to their breakthrough.  Frank Shorter was a 4:16 miler in high school--a good runner; but you can find a dozen or more anywhere in the country.  The biggest question is; what happened between then (when those runners were 17 or 18) and now (when they mature).  Why Frank turned out to be the Olympic champion and others didn't.  

     

    So where do we find this kind of info? What DID the build up look like?

     

    -Kelly

    Getting back in shape... Just need it to be a skinnier shape... 

      Even if you saw the buildup, what would it tell you? That if you want to reach your potential, you need to run a lot of miles? Or, would it say the key to success is gradual mileage building? Or, would it just show a young runner increasing his volume and capacity as his body developed? Or would it show rapid development as the body matured, then a long plateau once the body reached full maturity? 

       

      I imagine if you saw all of these pictures, you would see a quite amazing array of ways to train, ways to develop.

       

      Some runners are bulldozers--recovery machines. Their talent is that consistent training over time continues to yield effects. 

       

      Some runners are whippets--they are fast, they peak fast, they burn out quickly.

       

      Some runners lack an ability to respond much to training or a lot of natural talent; they will never be very fast.

       

      Frank Shorter found what worked for him--at a certain point in his life. The interesting thing to ask is why he didn't run more, for example. Bill Rodgers ran more, but did less quality. Kenny Moore had huge variation between his easy and long days.

       

      The final thing to think about is perhaps it is easier to run 120 mile weeks when what is at stake is Olympic Gold vs., say, taking 5 minutes off of a marathon time that nobody except you and maybe a couple other people care about. We want to hold elite athletes up as paragons of discipline, but discipline is easy to find when you are getting lots of positive feedback, no?

      jimmyb


        If Frank Shorter ran 12 hours a week, should an amateur/age grouper be running any more total duration than that?

        Log    PRs

        DoppleBock


          Most my friends that are "In to" their sports spend 8-12 hours per week

           

          Golf

          Volleyball

          Softball

          Bowling

          CC Skiing

           

          Running is the only sport since high school that I have dedicated more than 2 times a week and more than 3-4 hours.

          http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

          2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

           

          DoppleBock


            I like to run 12-18 hours per week ... If I did not run 50 minutes at lunch I would walk 50 minutes at lunch - So 3-4 hours of that is just for pure enjoyment

             

            If Frank Shorter ran 12 hours a week, should an amateur/age grouper be running any more total duration than that?

            http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

            2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

             


            Just a dude.

              Even if you saw the buildup, what would it tell you? That if you want to reach your potential, you need to run a lot of miles? Or, would it say the key to success is gradual mileage building? Or, would it just show a young runner increasing his volume and capacity as his body developed? Or would it show rapid development as the body matured, then a long plateau once the body reached full maturity? 

               

               

               

               

              I imagine that if I could see 15 years of training from 10 different great athletes, I expect to see a lot of variety of training approaches and responses.  But maybe I could find patterns, or ideas that I could try for myself. Maybe I'd see different emphasis on different phases of their development.  How did they build up to 100+ miles a week? Was the endurance built first, and then speed added later? Did they get to 6 minute miles at 40 mpw and then build? Did they try something and get small or no gains for a year? 

               

              Where on their progression could I find myself? Is their continued progression something I could keep pace with, or if not, what ingredients am I missing?

               

              And also, since they ended up being elite, I could at least assume they didn't spend years doing things that didn't work. (I'm not assuming they would all work for me.)

               

              In short, I'd expect that I would find direction for my training... I'd see several other trails that other people have blazed up the mountain... Trails that I might have some success following... And sure, I might not make it to the top, but it would sure be helpful to see how steep parts of it are so I can climb as high as I can...

               

              -Kelly

              Getting back in shape... Just need it to be a skinnier shape... 

              xor


                We're not still depressed are we?

                 

                  I imagine that if I could see 15 years of training from 10 different great athletes, I expect to see a lot of variety of training approaches and responses.  But maybe I could find patterns, or ideas that I could try for myself. Maybe I'd see different emphasis on different phases of their development.  How did they build up to 100+ miles a week? Was the endurance built first, and then speed added later? Did they get to 6 minute miles at 40 mpw and then build? Did they try something and get small or no gains for a year? 

                   

                  Where on their progression could I find myself? Is their continued progression something I could keep pace with, or if not, what ingredients am I missing?

                   

                  And also, since they ended up being elite, I could at least assume they didn't spend years doing things that didn't work. (I'm not assuming they would all work for me.)

                   

                  In short, I'd expect that I would find direction for my training... I'd see several other trails that other people have blazed up the mountain... Trails that I might have some success following... And sure, I might not make it to the top, but it would sure be helpful to see how steep parts of it are so I can climb as high as I can...

                   

                  -Kelly

                   

                   

                  Kelly,

                   

                  On a different site today, I saw a great success story of a young runner who over a handful of years of consistent training has developed into a very good college runner. I think we can glean a few things from it. I'm not posting this to make a sale's pitch for Tinman, though I think he's an excellent coach. I'm only posting this link to emphasize the importance of consistency and taking it one day at a time. And, it emphasizes that sometimes it takes years to bring out a runner's talent.  Here's the story: http://www.therunzone.com/index.php?topic=2380.0

                    I imagine that if I could see 15 years of training from 10 different great athletes, I expect to see a lot of variety of training approaches and responses.  But maybe I could find patterns, or ideas that I could try for myself. Maybe I'd see different emphasis on different phases of their development.  How did they build up to 100+ miles a week? Was the endurance built first, and then speed added later? Did they get to 6 minute miles at 40 mpw and then build? Did they try something and get small or no gains for a year? 

                     

                    Where on their progression could I find myself? Is their continued progression something I could keep pace with, or if not, what ingredients am I missing?

                     

                    And also, since they ended up being elite, I could at least assume they didn't spend years doing things that didn't work. (I'm not assuming they would all work for me.)

                     

                    In short, I'd expect that I would find direction for my training... I'd see several other trails that other people have blazed up the mountain... Trails that I might have some success following... And sure, I might not make it to the top, but it would sure be helpful to see how steep parts of it are so I can climb as high as I can...

                     

                    -Kelly

                     

                    This is good--yes, these reports would be interesting.

                     

                    But I guess I was responding to Lydiard's idea that the key to elite training is looking at what they were doing 10-15 years before. Perhaps this is true for some, but I don't really think this is really any more of a key than what they are doing now. Some elites would have been sitting on the couch, some playing soccer, some running to school, some riding their bike, some training to race the mile. Sure, distance runners develop over time, but that path of development and the role of consistent work in it is not as clear, perhaps, as our sense of justice in the athletic world would have us believe.

                       Jeff -"Sure, distance runners develop over time, but that path of development and the role of consistent work in it is not as clear, perhaps, as our sense of justice in the athletic world would have us believe."

                       

                       

                      Huh?!

                      Ricky

                      —our ability to perform up to our physiological potential in a race is determined by whether or not we truly psychologically believe that what we are attempting is realistic. Anton Krupicka

                         Jeff -"Sure, distance runners develop over time, but that path of development and the role of consistent work in it is not as clear, perhaps, as our sense of justice in the athletic world would have us believe."

                         

                         

                        Huh?!

                         

                        Yeah, that wasn't very clear. I was really making a point similar to Nobby's in some ways, which is that when the training we see doesn't match our training ideology, it is easy and somewhat common to assume some hidden sort of training that lies vaguely in the past that is the true reason why such and such a runner is successful.


                        Just a dude.

                          Yeah, that wasn't very clear. I was really making a point similar to Nobby's in some ways, which is that when the training we see doesn't match our training ideology, it is easy and somewhat common to assume some hidden sort of training that lies vaguely in the past that is the true reason why such and such a runner is successful.

                           

                          I was a successful runner in high school... I didn't understand training philosophies.  I just did what my coach told me to.

                           

                          I was not as successful runner in college.  I knew the training was different (and there were a ton of other factors involved) but I still did what my coach told me to.

                           

                          Now, I have no coach to tell me what to do.  I have some understanding of how I developed, and what worked for me before.  I'm much older now so that also has to be factored in.

                           

                          I can read a book from Lydiard or Daniels or whoever, and understand some concepts and ideas. A lot of time tho I feel almost like I am guessing or floundering. Lydiard says something like 1/4 pace or comfortably hard. I'd love to see how someone successfully translated that in a training log. Not that I need a number, but a number at least gives me a starting point. I would really like to see how other successful people applied those ideas, and how they responded to the ideas over time.

                           

                          /shrug...

                           

                          I like to analyze things too... (maybe too much.)

                           

                          -Kelly

                          Getting back in shape... Just need it to be a skinnier shape... 

                            I was a successful runner in high school... I didn't understand training philosophies.  I just did what my coach told me to.

                             

                            I was not as successful runner in college.  I knew the training was different (and there were a ton of other factors involved) but I still did what my coach told me to.

                             

                            Now, I have no coach to tell me what to do.  I have some understanding of how I developed, and what worked for me before.  I'm much older now so that also has to be factored in.

                             

                            I can read a book from Lydiard or Daniels or whoever, and understand some concepts and ideas. A lot of time tho I feel almost like I am guessing or floundering. Lydiard says something like 1/4 pace or comfortably hard. I'd love to see how someone successfully translated that in a training log. Not that I need a number, but a number at least gives me a starting point. I would really like to see how other successful people applied those ideas, and how they responded to the ideas over time.

                             

                            /shrug...

                             

                            I like to analyze things too... (maybe too much.)

                             

                            -Kelly

                             

                             

                            Yes--I am not saying that we shouldn't look at what people have done. Of course we should, and we should analyze and think and talk. The more the better. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.


                            HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                              If Frank Shorter ran 12 hours a week, should an amateur/age grouper be running any more total duration than that?

                               

                              That probably depends what "should" means here.

                               

                              Each additional hour of running takes away an hour that could have been spent doing something else (spending time with family and/or friends, resting, taking care of chores, working, doing church activities, other sports, golf, horseshoes, testing the waters for a run for political office, walking the dog, walking the zebra, walking the giraffe, walking both tigers, letting the zebra go then letting the tigers chase it...)

                              It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                                walking the giraffe

                                 

                                Bring a heavy duty leaf bag. Those little doggie bags they give away at the park for cleanup don't even make a dent. Trust me on this.

                                When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?

                                1234