Hawt and sexy
Wrong quote. I think I love your post peak attitude. In other news, I'm such a bitch. heh
I'm touching your pants.
Now back to your situation. You have a good base, you are talented and have much more room to improve. You say you don't have the "speed" component. The real truth is that you do. Much of your training is in your easy to long run pace range. You dabbled with intervals, occassional "hill" runs or fartlek or tempo efforts. You know the components of what you need to do for LONG distances but you just have to restructure for the shorter distances. Building strength through hill runs and general base mileage is great but you do need to get that turnover in there and LEARN how to push into that pain threshold as was discussed in the 5k pain thread here. .
Now back to your situation. You have a good base, you are talented and have much more room to improve. You say you don't have the "speed" component. The real truth is that you do. Much of your training is in your easy to long run pace range. You dabbled with intervals, occassional "hill" runs or fartlek or tempo efforts. You know the components of what you need to do for LONG distances but you just have to restructure for the shorter distances. Building strength through hill runs and general base mileage is great but you do need to get that turnover in there and LEARN how to push into that pain threshold as was discussed in the 5k pain thread here.
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You hit the nail on the head! I need to restructure for the shorter distances! I need to work on turnover and push into the pain. The plan I followed is a halfmarathon/marathon and I did A LOT more marathon effort runs than any other kind of speed work.
Your toughness is made up of equal parts persistence and experience. You don't so much outrun your opponents as outlast and outsmart them, and the toughest opponent of all is the one inside your head." - Joe Henderson
lol I really don't think I've peaked yet in fact I would gather that if I had a goal marathon in Jan, say towards the end of the month that I could significantly reduce my PR if all the stars were aligned! Now I'm basing this on how I'm feeling and how my running is feeling. I may be a noob when it comes to real training, however I'm not a noob as far as figuring out my feelings And yes you are a bitch!
I thought you did some 5k pace interval work. Or was I dreaming and stuff?
And how did that race go this weekend again? I forgot. heh *cough* hamstring *cough*
I thought you did some 5k pace interval work. Or was I dreaming and stuff? And how did that race go this weekend again? I forgot. heh *cough* hamstring *cough*
That was in the beginning of September.
I didn't race, however I had a GREAT marathon effort paced run. My hamstring issue was more than likely due to the fact that I've been doing way too many of those over the past couple months. And in truth hamstring wasn't really a big issue HOWEVER I got the feeling that it could be if I wasn't careful so I was. And who knows despite only having until early December, just maybe I'll still have a kick ass Marathon that I really wasn't planning (only signed up because others I know are doing it and I didn't have to pay up front and in the end it's only 10 dollars)
Partial counterpoint: on-the-edge intervals also carry a greater risk of injury. I think simulating in training the feeling of the final 400m of a 5k is pointless -- come that point in the race, you're either "all in" or you're not. Where intervals really helped me mentally was doing something along the lines of 5x1000-1200. The work is over the LT line, and the repeats are long enough that you dwell in that effort for more than straights-and-curves amounts of times. Jogging after the third repeat, feeling the effort, and knowing you still have two more to go -- that gets your body AND your mind used to being in that state and getting the job done. Having the effort settle on you early in the second lap while you still have half the repeat left -- that was precisely the lesson I needed to have learned when that same feeling swept over me in a 5k (which I've raced only a few times). I have fond memories of the gut-wrenching track stuff we did in high school. But I'd be very sparing advocating such stuff for a masters athlete (until she'd proven she could withstand it).
Partial counterpoint: on-the-edge intervals also carry a greater risk of injury. I think simulating in training the feeling of the final 400m of a 5k is pointless -- come that point in the race, you're either "all in" or you're not.
Where intervals really helped me mentally was doing something along the lines of 5x1000-1200. The work is over the LT line, and the repeats are long enough that you dwell in that effort for more than straights-and-curves amounts of times. Jogging after the third repeat, feeling the effort, and knowing you still have two more to go -- that gets your body AND your mind used to being in that state and getting the job done. Having the effort settle on you early in the second lap while you still have half the repeat left -- that was precisely the lesson I needed to have learned when that same feeling swept over me in a 5k (which I've raced only a few times).
I have fond memories of the gut-wrenching track stuff we did in high school. But I'd be very sparing advocating such stuff for a masters athlete (until she'd proven she could withstand it).
Fair point but in retrospect I didn't know if I could do them either but having someone who knows how to structure a good workout (Spaniel in my case) instead of trying some goofy stunt helped me get the workout and not get hurt.
Frankly, you don't know how fast you can go until you go as fast as you can.
I learned lots about my running on the track and it was only once per week. Plus, what I think is fast is pretty slow compared to must. Its a relative effort.
Here was the link to that discussion. http://www.runningahead.com/forums/post/7e95fbbcb119401b942bd0d9443755a1#focus
BTW - I like that 5x1000. I will have to put that in the hopper next session.
"He conquers who endures" - Persius "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel
http://ncstake.blogspot.com/
Feeling the growl again
I think I need a coach lol. Someone that pushes me.
Stop the namby pamby whining, get your ass out the door and run. 8X800 at 5K pace with 2 minute active recoveries.
OK, that'll be $20.
Well, once the injury is healed, I think you've already gotten good advice. The thing about track work is, actual physical injuries aside, until you've been doing it for 4-6 weeks you just can't work yourself hard enough to hurt. Your turnover and your anaerobic system are probably pathetic and that will self-limit you until they come up to speed. So don't be afraid of a little set of intervals. In a couple months when you can really push your lactate level high and hold a high level of pain going into the next interval....and you spend all day in jitters about your afternoon workout, THEN you can be afraid of a little track work.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
ABSOLUTELY LOVED 5x1000! I have to say I wish the plan I was following had more than 4 weeks of Anaerobic phase! I think I was JUST starting to figure intervals out and then boom no more.
Very rarely would I recommend someone try to simulate the feeling of the final 400m of a 5K...it IS pointless, for the most part.
That's not what intervals are about -- it's more closely related to the second half, all about fitness. When you haven't been doing real speed, but have good base, you have fitness your legs can't cash. They get acidic and start shutting down...you can't hurt. When you have been challenging yourself for a number of weeks your leg muscles catch up with their ability to handle high-end work for extended durations...AND you've given your VO2max a good kick in the pants....and you can end up puking on the side of the track if you want to.
Injury is an individual thing. That's why it's vital to warm up well, including some accelerations. And also lead into a period of interval work with a few sessions of good, high-speed strides to make sure your leg muscles are used to the range of motion.
Stop the namby pamby whining, get your ass out the door and run. 8X800 at 5K pace with 2 minute active recoveries. OK, that'll be $20. Well, once the injury is healed, I think you've already gotten good advice. The thing about track work is, actual physical injuries aside, until you've been doing it for 4-6 weeks you just can't work yourself hard enough to hurt. Your turnover and your anaerobic system are probably pathetic and that will self-limit you until they come up to speed. So don't be afraid of a little set of intervals. In a couple months when you can really push your lactate level high and hold a high level of pain going into the next interval....and you spend all day in jitters about your afternoon workout, THEN you can be afraid of a little track work.
be careful Andy I just may do that and then the wrath of Ken will be upon all of us. Seriously if it was up to me I'd run lots of easy miles this week and get back to speed workouts next week (as long as the hamstring isn't speaking and it didn't on today's run) I don't know about anyone else but I really enjoy speed workouts! Love the rush I feel DURING it and AFTERWARDS. Who knows maybe I will. I have a marathon scheduled for Dec 10th or the first of a 5k/10k series on Dec 11th
Very rarely would I recommend someone try to simulate the feeling of the final 400m of a 5K...it IS pointless, for the most part. That's not what intervals are about -- it's more closely related to the second half, all about fitness. When you haven't been doing real speed, but have good base, you have fitness your legs can't cash. They get acidic and start shutting down...you can't hurt. When you have been challenging yourself for a number of weeks your leg muscles catch up with their ability to handle high-end work for extended durations...AND you've given your VO2max a good kick in the pants....and you can end up puking on the side of the track if you want to. Injury is an individual thing. That's why it's vital to warm up well, including some accelerations. And also lead into a period of interval work with a few sessions of good, high-speed strides to make sure your leg muscles are used to the range of motion.
see this is what I dont' get. My legs have never gotten acidic or shut down during a 5k or speed work. My last 5k I did the last .12 at a 5:47 pace which is something I don't seem to have a problem doing so , but then again the plan that I did it had me doing my intervals at like 1/4 effort the first two weeks and 1/2 effort the second two weeks. Never mind I can see why I haven't dealt with acidic in legs
MTA: Boy am I a novice!
Just re-read this. On the edge for me is running with an all out effort but still feeling under control. Not sure if that makes sense but it's not balls to the wall and all hell breaking loose but as fast as I can go while still being in control (especially any bodily functions). The last 400 of a 6k is primal and no holds barred on the edge of hurl. That's not for training.
I think I was running 400 repeats at 1:20 - 1:25. I could manage 6 to 8 but at some point my body tells me its time and automatically slows me down but the perception for a 1:20 fresh = 1:35 when tired. When I can hit 8 to 10 and still make my 1:25. I know my condition is getting there.
Just re-read this. On the edge for me is running with an all out effort but still feeling under control. Not sure if that makes sense but it's not balls to the wall and all hell breaking loose but as fast as I can go while still being in control (especially any bodily functions). The last 400 of a 6k is primal and no holds barred on the edge of hurl. That's not for training. I think I was running 400 repeats at 1:20 - 1:25. I could manage 6 to 8 but at some point my body tells me its time and automatically slows me down but the perception for a 1:20 fresh = 1:35 when tired. When I can hit 8 to 10 and still make my 1:25. I know my condition is getting there.
That makes sense and that is how I've been told intervals should be ran.
This is the one out of 2 "400" s workouts I did in this training cycle
http://www.runningahead.com/logs/93814b127caa4e378c9ace7e4cff0cba/workouts/76b86ae364a14613bc56fe45f23471a7
I ran them with dh who is not even close to the shape I'm in (he was pretty much going balls out towards the end) which is why the recovery was more of a stand and walk for a bit and probably a bit too long for the purpose of the workout
Spaniel, C-R -- agreed. I'm remembering back to stuff like 6x880 (yeah, we were English) @ (half-mile race-time + 15sec) w/440 jog recovery. Or 20x110 @ 90-95% effort w/110 jog, followed by an all-out 440. (Yes, coach had just read Once A Runner. At least he had the decency to scale it down for us.) For the first, all but two of us couldn't finish the workout still hitting the times. For the latter, the best quarter mustered was a 59, everyone was wiped out for days ... and we're talking about hyper-resilient high-schoolers. That's the kind of stuff I wouldn't think of throwing at a masters runner -- not those specific workouts, mind you, but the type of workout that leaves you puking on the side of the track. But then, I'm just a hobbyjogger.
I guess my more general view is that while intervals should be difficult, you should finish the workout feeling like you could've produced another one or two repeats if demanded. Maybe with high effort or suffering, but possible.
"... and you spend all day in jitters about your afternoon workout ..." Love that!
"I want you to pray as if everything depends on it, but I want you to prepare yourself as if everything depends on you."
-- Dick LeBeau
but the type of workout that leaves you puking on the side of the track. But then, I'm just a hobbyjogger. "... and you spend all day in jitters about your afternoon workout ..." Love that!
but the type of workout that leaves you puking on the side of the track. But then, I'm just a hobbyjogger.
Workouts that leave you puking on the side of the track are good for making HS boys feel like men. They have no application in real training. I know mid-distance types do some more intense intervals, but I am still not familiar with any experienced, successful runners who push themselves stupid hard and expect a positive return out of it.
Yeah, during my best six months, I spent pretty much every Tuesday and Thursday anxious over the evening's workout. Weren't those the days. If I ran now the intensity that was routine then I WOULD be puking on the side of the track.