Self anointed title
\ stressing your endocrin system.
\
stressing your endocrin system.
Feeling the growl again
This is probably THE most important (and most often overlooked) aspect of a long ultra. Less than 12hrs - it is almost irrelevant. More than 15 / 16hrs? It is the most important thing. I overlooked this dramatically in my 24hr race. I still plan to go back to the event and try to crack it. Sometime. When the pain eventually subsides.
So school me on the whole endocrine system thing. All I know is mine is already fucked up.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
So I did some quick reading on ultras and the endocrine system. This seems nothing new to me, this sounds exactly like what happens with high mileage training when you "overtrain". Having trained to that point in the past I'm familiar with the symptoms and it all makes a lot of sense.
I am signed up
Who knows - I will likely go jog a couple of PWs
DB, You still doing icebreaker in Jan? Iwas thinking of doing the half but am not sure at this point. My Achilles seem to be fine but I've been dealing with a stupid knee twinge that doesn't want to seem to get better. Because of that I've been on the sideline holding out until it is better to start running again.
Long dead ... But my stench lingers !
In a single long run - Easy pace - for me 8-8:15 when I am in shape (Actually recovey pace) -
As you continue to run at this pace it gets a little harder as you fatigue, but sooner or later you get more than heart race drift - You are really up against it - Heart rate climbs dramatically with a much higher effort level. Early on I will be mid 130s, late I will be mid 140s and then it will shoot up to the mid 160s to low 170s -
If your life depended on it, I would guess I could push on for 2-3 hours before I pass out. I usually do 20-30 minutes. A light to low moderate stress of the endocrin system. A couple of times I did more and when I stopped on the TM, I had to sit down on the TM (At YMCA) or I was going to pass out.
You have 2 options if you do not want to do 5-7 hours
1) Run 30-40 minutes and then 40 minutes @ true marathon pace - then slide back into the really easy pace until you hit the drift
2) Run at the faster end of easy pace. If recovery pace is 7:45-8:00, run 7:30s.
IThe 1st time I would shoot for 8s and really practice whatever fueling you think you might want to do. I use a 7 mile loop and refuel each loop. Maybe start with a nice easy 35 miler. Then try and hit 3-4 between 40-45 miles.
So essentially an extension of the "fast finish long run" idea? Hey Spaniel - that's kinda up your street isn't it?
Kindof backward - fun fast early and keep running
But Spaniel it is exactly the same thing that can happen when running big hard weeks - but this happens all in one run and if you do it right it will not carry over to the rest of the week of training.
Options,Account, Forums
Fast early and keep running sounds like how I ran my marathon last weekend. Was running about my 10mi pace for first 5mi, I think, and then kept slowing after that, until even my slow pace felt like hard work. The beginning fast part was fun; the rest was quite uncomfortable; I was grumpy, and sore, and very tired.
That was awfully painful, and that was only a 3.5hr experience. How long a duration are you talking about doing this, DB?
(But, OTOH, I was able to race the next morning, happily enough. And I did it on purpose, so it's not like I had anyone to blame. )
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
Yup.
I would like to think I will be emulating the training of 2006 for Boston this year but I will not. But what I remember is that since I was doign 10-11 runs per week, with 3-4 very hard workouts, I had a lot of the signs of a very trained endocrine system. For example I'd hammer a 18-22 mile on Sunday, say 15 miles 6:30ish then sub-6 down to 5:20s thru finish, "easy" 6:30-6:40 paced 10-12 miles on Monday, then an AM 6 miles 6:50ish on Tuesday. So for Tuesday night's interval workout I'd be tired. But somehow once I got into it my body would quickly respond, and I'd have an awesome workout. This cycle continued for every workout for months. I was just reading through my log a couple days ago from back then, and "tired" is written down damn near every day. For months.
Then eventually it stopped happening. Workouts fizzled although I felt no different. I think now what happened was I over-stressed my endocrine system with the stress and it could no longer support me through it.
Since it took consistent 90-110 mpw and hard workouts to do this, I don't think I'd get there for this. So I will likely do, say, one very long run as described every 3-4 weeks. C-R pointed out a 50-miler close by a month after Boston, so I may get my feet wet there.
I feel pretty confident I have experience with this now...I just need to replicate it at a lower training load.
Now that we have endocrine covered, school me on fueling...both in training and for the race.
Oh, and 6-ish hours at 8min pace....45ish miles. F-U-C-K.
Best way to do really long run is at a recovery pace and take care of h20, electrolyte and fuel and just keep going until you hit the Endocrin Drift Zone.
I happen to be in the middle of a 50 mile long run last year and saw my buddy running, so I ran with him for the company. I was running 8-8:15 pace. We ran 6:30-6:45 pace for 6 miles, then he was doen and I continued for another 3 hours. I believe I ended up with 38 miles - I believe (Theory) hit the same endocrin drift earlier by having a higher level of stress earlier. Reality I was in pretty good shape at the time, so it might have been True MP +15-20 seconds.
I belive the 1st 2 times Andy goes long - He will not need to employ this theory and maybe never. But if he is running Recovery pace for 5 hours and runs out of time, the next time this may be worth a try.
Currently I would smile just to run 3 hours or even 2 both aerobic conditioning wise and injury pain wise.
Fast early and keep running sounds like how I ran my marathon last weekend. Was running about my 10mi pace for first 5mi, I think, and then kept slowing after that, until even my slow pace felt like hard work. The beginning fast part was fun; the rest was quite uncomfortable; I was grumpy, and sore, and very tired. That was awfully painful, and that was only a 3.5hr experience. How long a duration are you talking about doing this, DB? (But, OTOH, I was able to race the next morning, happily enough. And I did it on purpose, so it's not like I had anyone to blame. )
PS - Most people confuse their current MP effort with their goal MP. When my goal MP is 6:15 - I am at 6:30 current MP 4 weeks out and sharpen down to a 6:15 over the 4 weeks.
Current MP effort = 8:00+ if I would survive it.
Yup. Oh, and 6-ish hours at 8min pace....45ish miles. F-U-C-K.
Yes it will be a high end moderate to hard stress on the Endocrin system - A bit more than I do in training.
Sounds like a race to me?
Many people race ultras to build for a goal ultra race - Racing ultras tears me down, so I tend not to enter an ultra in build up.
Yeah baby. I am running a 12hr race in April (as part of pbville build up). The aim will be to run 8:00 pace until I have to slow, and then try to hang on to it, until I have to slow further, lather-rinse-repeat. Is that a good endocrine system workout? Goal will be 80 mi +. I ran a 76 there last year, but am nowhere near as fit as I was then - I've got some work to do.