Then why are you even considering another marathon in June? Why would anyone run a warm weather marathon? I don't even like doing long runs in warm weather. I think part of the issue here is running too many marathons. I don't see a point, assuming your goal is fast times vs merit badges, of running multiple [or more than 2-3 marathons] a year. Someone once said that you only have so many [marathon] bullets. Don't waste them on sub-par races. Again, I assume your goal is racing vs collecting finisher medals.

I am reading a book right now called, "The Perfection Point."  The idea is to examine the theoretical limit of human performance given a person who is ideally built for an event and given perfect conditions on that day.  It looks at the fastest possible 100 meter dash, the fastest possible 50 meter swim, the longest possible home run, and several other athletic feats.  One of those is the fastest possible marathon which it pegs, as I recall, about 2:58:30.  In the discussion about marathons, he notes that most world class runners run their fastest marathon within their first 5 races.  I'll have to look up the statistics when I get home but it's astonishing how few truly all out marathons you have in your body.

He notes that athletes face the competing demand of racing as often as possible for their sponsors vs. racing infrequently for top performances.  For that reason, it is not uncommon for athletes at that level to drop out of a race if they are having a bad day.  Why waste the effort when the result will be sub-par regardless?

But, I'll buy that you only have a few truly all out marathons in you for any number of reasons.  First, the physical recovery takes a long time.  I'm pretty confident that I lose fitness after an all out marathon because the recovery takes so damn long.  Second, it takes a while to be mentally willing to put in the kind of training needed to run on the edge and there has to be a reason to suffer like that again.  Mind you, I think you can run 80-90% effort marathons fairly regularly.  So, if 3:30 was an "on the edge, all out, perfect weather" marathon, you could run 3:45-3:50 several times a year with no ill effects.  Then again, you're collecting medals rather than racing at that point.

 

Then why are you even considering another marathon in June? Why would anyone run a warm weather marathon? I don't even like doing long runs in warm weather. I think part of the issue here is running too many marathons. I don't see a point, assuming your goal is fast times vs merit badges, of running multiple [or more than 2-3 marathons] a year. Someone once said that you only have so many [marathon] bullets. Don't waste them on sub-par races. Again, I assume your goal is racing vs collecting finisher medals.

Why the one race in June? Not for the weather, obviously. The reasons are that it's on the way to where we are going for a week, on business. It's cheap. If I can run it in less than 3:42, I have a chance at winning first female overall. I like helping the local economy of places I particularly love (one night at a hotel, a couple meals, race registration). It makes me happy to run marathons.

Does that make me a merit badge collector? Perhaps. But... 14 marathons in 4 years, 13 of them in the last 36 months. That's more than one every 3 months. 6 of them I ran in 3:40 and less (BQ -15 and more), 6 of them I won AG awards for (4x1st place, 2x3rd place). There is at least some merit in the fact that I am not injured more often. :-)

 

Keep in mind, if you are in A/G placement contention in great conditions, you are also in conention in shitty conditions as well.  They have to run in the same weather...

 

It just depends on how bad you want it.

Unless a race is TINY, nope. I'm not in contention. Maybe in the top 25%, but not going to win anything.

 

I think Moth's point is that running more than 2 marathons per year is probably hampering your ability to run your absolute best time.  But there's more to it than running your best time (such as the reasons you mention above).  But that doesn't mean you can't run them very well, as you've evidenced!

 

Anyway, I think 10 sec per mile is a very reasonable adjustment. Good luck and have fun.

Yes, I agree with that. You cannot run your absolute best race all the time. But you can do your best effort each time. :-)

 

I am reading a book right now called, "The Perfection Point."  The idea is to examine the theoretical limit of human performance given a person who is ideally built for an event and given perfect conditions on that day.  It looks at the fastest possible 100 meter dash, the fastest possible 50 meter swim, the longest possible home run, and several other athletic feats.  One of those is the fastest possible marathon which it pegs, as I recall, about 2:58:30.  In the discussion about marathons, he notes that most world class runners run their fastest marathon within their first 5 races.  I'll have to look up the statistics when I get home but it's astonishing how few truly all out marathons you have in your body.

 

He notes that athletes face the competing demand of racing as often as possible for their sponsors vs. racing infrequently for top performances.  For that reason, it is not uncommon for athletes at that level to drop out of a race if they are having a bad day.  Why waste the effort when the result will be sub-par regardless?

 

But, I'll buy that you only have a few truly all out marathons in you for any number of reasons.  First, the physical recovery takes a long time.  I'm pretty confident that I lose fitness after an all out marathon because the recovery takes so damn long.  Second, it takes a while to be mentally willing to put in the kind of training needed to run on the edge and there has to be a reason to suffer like that again.  Mind you, I think you can run 80-90% effort marathons fairly regularly.  So, if 3:30 was an "on the edge, all out, perfect weather" marathon, you could run 3:45-3:50 several times a year with no ill effects.  Then again, you're collecting medals rather than racing at that point.

If you look at elite athletes, who are obviously pushing the edge, most fall into this pattern. At best they dominate for a few years and then basically disappear from contending for world titles. My PB was in my 3rd marathon, in my 3rd year running [since high school]. I believe I could have extended that for a few more years but I got burned out by the intensity of my training / racing. When I picked things back up 10 years later it's possible I could have approached that time with better training only because of the very low mile approach I sustained in my 20's. Fact is by then I was a different runner - shorter, less explosive stride - in my mid-30's than I was 10 years earlier. I'd already missed my chance to run fast times. YMMV.

Of my 20 marathons only one was on the ragged edge; my 1st BQ attempt - and I'll never do that to myself again.  It's one thing to suffer for the last 3 miles or 10k but I was hurting in the 1st 10k, and kept pushing all the way to the finish. Somehow I recovered from that ordeal and BQ'd two years later in a much easier effort. As were all of my subsequent marathons. Building your aerobic engine, from one year to the next, was the ticket, instead of trying to run beyond your fitness.

One of my marathons was used as a dress rehearsal. It had been 5 years since my last and I was dealing with a mysterious case of hamstring cramps [always striking on downhills]. So I chose a hilly marathon to test supplements along with shoes, gels, etc... no formal training just a few long runs. I ended up running 9 minutes slower [3:44:53] than my qualifying time [3:35:59] in a very comfortable effort [call it a glorified long run] that I would call my 2nd easiest marathon. I suppose I could run marathons at that effort every month. 5 1/2 months and Pfitz 18/70 schedule later I shaved 14+ minutes off that time @ race effort in my qualifier [3:30:00].

I should add that I was running between 800-1900 mpy from 1981 - 2006. It wasn't until my last two marathons - 2009 and 2010 - that I maintained high mileage; 3500-3700 mpy. And while my recovery was much improved I felt zero desire to jump into another marathon 3 months or even 6 months later because I first had to erase the memory of the last one.   I don't know what other people do, regarding race effort / recovery, for their marathons but I know I can't hammer like that on a regular basis - not for 26 miles.

Mike, my experience has roughly paralleled yours.  I ran Boston in 3:23 but it was, as you nicely put it, a victory lap.  I was doing tempo work 10 days later and raced a decent, although not great, half marathon a few days after that tempo work.  If I'd had one more week of recovery, I could have put in a PR effort at that HM.  I contrast that with my sub 3:00 attempt.

The weather wasn't perfect as there was a brutal headwind from Mile 14-19.  I hurt my back and missed an entire week of training.  Prior to that fluke injury, many of my training runs suggested that a low 2:58 was within the realm of possibility.  My hamstring, which I now know has a slight tear, started acting up at Mile 3.  I was feeling the effort by Mile 10.  A guy in our local running club who has been running for 40 or 50 years saw me at Mile 11 and his exact thought was, "he looks like shit."  Another local runner saw me at Mile 15 and thought the same thing.  Well, I felt just the way I looked.  It was awful from start to finish.  I was so fucking glad for that race to be over I didn't even celebrate much at reaching my goal.  I could barely walk the rest of that day and the next day.  My first running effort occurred 3 days post-race.  I survived a whopping total of 3 miles and my comment in my log was, "damn did it hurt."  Over two weeks post-race, I tried what should have been a fairly easy speed workout and had to bail before I finished.  2 1/2 weeks post race, I ran a Turkey Trot and my comment was that I simply couldn't get my legs to turn over.  It was about six weeks before I felt like I had fully recovered from that race.

It's really, really hard to decide to put myself through that again.  On top of that, I recall plenty of times heading out the door at 9:00 or 10:00 at night because I hadn't managed to run that day or because I only managed to get in 2-3 miles earlier that day and thinking, "why in the hell am I doing this?"

That's interesting, Moth. You've had a great and long career, and more is to come, no doubt.

Re-reading LTH, mine and MothAudio's posts make me wonder whether it's a coincidence that the people who love to talk the most about their "running accomplishments" are amongst the eldest around here. I think we're trying to compensate for something (I mean old age ).

 

So is it too slow a start if it's 65F? I need a sub-3:40, no matter the weather. 

That'll be no problem if you can control yourself in the early miles.