Congrats on your PR, Steve Austin! You have a great attitude about it, but I know you are disappointed. I don't know what kind of sadists schedule marathons this late in the season, when there is always a high risk of it being too hot anywhere in the country. Your description of forcing yourself to keep running to get it over with sooner, and not being able to cool yourself off no matter how much water you drank or dumped on yourself (as well as the grimacing photo) certainly brought back some flashbacks for me. My lesson learned from running a stupid marathon in June last year was to make sure I was ready to run one this year in April. That was my motivation to keep the training up during the winter. (That's running training, not skiing. )
Regarding training - certainly your weekly mileage looked solid to me, but I am not qualified to make any comments on training specifics or goal reasonableness. However the theory I am banking on for myself, since we are at relatively similar points in our running careers, is the benefit of the accumulated mileage over time. That is, you will see an improvement this fall after another high-mileage cycle, even if you don't make any training adjustments. Then any training adjustments will provide improvements on top of that.
Dave
delicate flower
Thanks for all the comments and input. While I hate to pin my performance on the heat alone, it sounds like that may have been a big part of it.
Klompus, I normally do pretty good in the heat, but that's once I get used to it. One run in the warmth this year prior to the marathon did not prepare me well enough. It was cool going through training at the same time as you and keeping tabs here and on FB.
Ginny, there was slight humidity at the start, but it quickly burned away. I don't think humidity played a role at all. I do have allergies but they are late season allergies (grasses and molds).
Brr, I plan on making two adjustments for Philly and you nailed one of them: GMP miles. I ran some, but not enough. My long runs were strictly for building endurance. I did not run a single GMP mile in any of my LR's. Another thing I need to do is add midweek MLR's in the 14-17 mile range. I ran a lot of 8-10 milers, and the 20+ milers, but nothing in between. I didn't want to add any more volume though, as my knee started to get unhappy when I tried.
Oski, we have some thinking to do about next year. You and Mr. O would love this event.
LRB, I knew you'd be one of the people waiting to hear how I did and wanted to see me do well, and I wish I could have had a better result to share. Next time, man.
DaveP, I agree with you about the higher mileage alone being a benefit. I think I'd see an improvement in Philly if I trained the same way, and making the adjustments will help that much more.
StoneFence, Beth, Oski, lily, B-Plus, bluesky, meaghan, Docket, D2, thanks you for all the comments and feedback.
Sure I wanted to do better, but I am also pleased with my result under the circumstances. It does sound like I can pin a lot of this on the heat alone. I told DW that if I had not trained so well, I probably would have been looking at a much bigger crash and burn. I think my fitness prevented this from being a complete disaster. I mean, people have missed their goals by a much bigger margin than 13 minutes.
BTW, I think I can officially put the knee issue behind me. At no point during the race did it bother me, and I am feeling no discomfort in it post-marathon. Normally it takes about 18 months to feel 100% better. I think I'm there and can go all in for Philly.
<3
Here’s a recap of my 4th marathon, Vermont City in Burlington, VT, which I ran yesterday. This was my first marathon in 19 months after a quick stint on the DL with ACL reconstruction in my left knee. Scroll to the bottom for the results if you ain't got time for no readin'. Training: I had been running well since last summer, so all I did was make a few adjustments to my training. I didn’t want to stick with a set training plan because I didn’t know what my knee could handle. So, all I did was increase my weekly mileage and add the long runs. I averaged 60 mpw for the 12 weeks prior to taper, and peaked at 67 miles. Most of my runs were in the 8-10 mile range. Compared to last marathon in 2012, I was about a minute faster per mile on all runs on average, and 90-120 seconds faster per mile on my long runs. I did five runs of 20+miles and averaged just under my marathon PR pace (8:35). I thought I trained very well. My training and recent race times pointed to a 3:20-3:25 finish (7:45 pace), so that’s what I aimed for. The race: The weather forecast headed into the race was 50 at the start and peaking at 70, with a chance of scattered showers. Lining up in the starting corral, my stomach was grumbling. That bothered me. I thought I had eaten enough. I was also already starting to sweat. I didn’t think much of it. It was warmer than predicted without a cloud in the sky. I got preferred seeding, which was nice. About five minutes before the race started, I was looking around at the crowds and started thinking about the last 15 months. I started to get a little emotional. It wasn’t lost on me how far I’ve come during that time, and I was just so happy to be lined up for another marathon. I belonged here. My plan was to go out at 7:45 pace and hold it steady. After the typical pre-race stuff, the wheelchair division was off, followed by the runners about two minutes later. Miles 1-6: 7:42, 7:25, 7:44, 7:19, 7:33, 7:45 Nice and steady the first 10K. The crowd support was insane the first few miles. People were lined up 2-3 deep in spots and they were loud. There was a fair bit of downhill in the beginning of the race so some of miles were ahead of pace. By mile 3 I was already lathered up pretty good and had sweat in my eyes. I thought it was too early to be that warm, but my HR was in check and it felt easy, so I just held steady. I grabbed a cup of water, sometimes two, at every water station. I downed a gel every 40 minutes, and took a squirt of Perpetuem from my handheld every two miles. Facebook reported my 10K split as a 7:15 pace. That was incorrect for those of you who saw that (see mile splits above). Not sure what happened there. Miles 7-13: 7:39, 7:56, 8:10, 7:40, 7:58, 8:08, 8:14 Miles 4-9 were out and back on a closed expressway. No spectators here and no cover from the sun. After hitting the turnaround, I got to see the field behind me. It was pretty cool. Among that sea of about 4,000 runners, me and DW managed to spot each other. She was running a two person relay. She darted across the median and we high fived. Miles 8 and 9 were uphill and so my pace slowed here. I tried to keep the same effort and not force the pace. I got off the expressway and settled back into goal pace. The course went back through town and through all the spectators. So cool! I crossed the 10 mile mark right on schedule. I first felt fatigue around here and that concerned me. There was way too much race left. Goal pace started to get hard and my pace already started to slip, and thus began my rapid fade. I crossed the half split in 1:42. That was right where I wanted to be, but the fade was on and I knew there was no stopping it. Miles 14-20: 8:15, 8:24, 8:57, 8:40, 8:26, 8:39, 8:54 After the half checkpoint, the course worked it’s way onto a bike path along Lake Champlain and through some residential areas for a couple of miles. Nice scenery, but I was too warm to care. The biggest hill of the course is up Battery Park Hill at mile 15 Someone said you can “hear it” coming, and that was a perfect description. Huge drums being banged and screaming spectators. The hill was a half mile at 13% grade and was lined with spectators shoulder to shoulder. I lumbered up the hill. It was tough but the crowd support was awesome. Strava says I ran the hill at 9:30 pace. I’m cool with that. The course trended downhill the last 10 miles, but I could not pick up the pace. I had given up the goal pace was just trying to keep ahead of PR pace (8:35). Even that got hard. I was trying to stay ahead of the 3:30 pace group but I knew they’d pass me eventually. I was hot and there was very little shade protection. I was suffering. Miles 21-26.2: 8:55, 9:03, 9:19, 9:18, 9:15, 9:19 Begin the death march. I was ready for this to end. I had started dumping water on myself, something I had only done once before in a race. I also ran through any sprinkler I saw. I was trying anything to stay cool but with little success. I wanted to walk but kept telling myself to just keep running. Walking would only prolong this agony. The course turned back onto the bike path along the lake for the final four miles. Finally some shade protection, but too little too late. I did find a pace that I could maintain so I stayed there. Slow and steady. By now I just wanted to get the PR and be done with it. The bike path was pretty awesome though. When the path crossed the handful of intersections, there were so many spectators crowded around that there was only enough room for runners to comfortably go single file. It was nuts. I also got the “joy” of seeing relay runners flying past me left and right. I was envious of their fresh legs. With a mile to go, I could hear the circus that was the finish area. Almost there. Despite the assurance from some spectators that I was “looking good” and “looking strong”, I was fairly certain that I looked like hell. Approaching the finish line, I raised my arms in victory, because despite my rough race, it was not lost on me that I was about the cross the finish line of a marathon and with a seven minute PR to my credit. I crossed the finish line and immediately approached by a medic. I was fine for having just ran a marathon. I got my medal, grabbed a water, found a spot on the grass, and plopped down on my back exhausted. Marathon #4 is in the books. The skinny: Official time was 3:38:42. 7 minute PR OA: 488 / 2613 (top 18%) AG: 70 / 209 Goal missed by 13 minutes 12 minute positive split So what happened? Any advice, thoughts, constructive criticism here is welcome. I thought I trained well and would run faster. Was I not as well prepared as I thought I was? Was it just the heat? The temps got above 70 with little sun protection. This was only my second run this year in that kind of warmth. One could say I went out too fast, but 7:45 pace seemed reasonable. It’s not like I went out with guns blazing. It seemed like a fair goal. Maybe it was nutrition? Having a grumbling stomach before the race started certainly couldn’t have helped. Maybe it was a combination of everything. While I didn’t hit my goal, I’m still ok with my race. I know a bunch of people that ran this and literally nobody hit their goal. I did the best I could, and let’s face it, a 3:38 marathon ain’t all bad. I’m running Philadelphia in November. I will reload and make some adjustments to my training.
Here’s a recap of my 4th marathon, Vermont City in Burlington, VT, which I ran yesterday. This was my first marathon in 19 months after a quick stint on the DL with ACL reconstruction in my left knee. Scroll to the bottom for the results if you ain't got time for no readin'.
Training: I had been running well since last summer, so all I did was make a few adjustments to my training. I didn’t want to stick with a set training plan because I didn’t know what my knee could handle. So, all I did was increase my weekly mileage and add the long runs. I averaged 60 mpw for the 12 weeks prior to taper, and peaked at 67 miles. Most of my runs were in the 8-10 mile range. Compared to last marathon in 2012, I was about a minute faster per mile on all runs on average, and 90-120 seconds faster per mile on my long runs. I did five runs of 20+miles and averaged just under my marathon PR pace (8:35). I thought I trained very well. My training and recent race times pointed to a 3:20-3:25 finish (7:45 pace), so that’s what I aimed for.
The race: The weather forecast headed into the race was 50 at the start and peaking at 70, with a chance of scattered showers. Lining up in the starting corral, my stomach was grumbling. That bothered me. I thought I had eaten enough. I was also already starting to sweat. I didn’t think much of it. It was warmer than predicted without a cloud in the sky. I got preferred seeding, which was nice. About five minutes before the race started, I was looking around at the crowds and started thinking about the last 15 months. I started to get a little emotional. It wasn’t lost on me how far I’ve come during that time, and I was just so happy to be lined up for another marathon. I belonged here.
My plan was to go out at 7:45 pace and hold it steady. After the typical pre-race stuff, the wheelchair division was off, followed by the runners about two minutes later.
Miles 1-6: 7:42, 7:25, 7:44, 7:19, 7:33, 7:45
Nice and steady the first 10K. The crowd support was insane the first few miles. People were lined up 2-3 deep in spots and they were loud. There was a fair bit of downhill in the beginning of the race so some of miles were ahead of pace. By mile 3 I was already lathered up pretty good and had sweat in my eyes. I thought it was too early to be that warm, but my HR was in check and it felt easy, so I just held steady. I grabbed a cup of water, sometimes two, at every water station. I downed a gel every 40 minutes, and took a squirt of Perpetuem from my handheld every two miles. Facebook reported my 10K split as a 7:15 pace. That was incorrect for those of you who saw that (see mile splits above). Not sure what happened there.
Miles 7-13: 7:39, 7:56, 8:10, 7:40, 7:58, 8:08, 8:14
Miles 4-9 were out and back on a closed expressway. No spectators here and no cover from the sun. After hitting the turnaround, I got to see the field behind me. It was pretty cool. Among that sea of about 4,000 runners, me and DW managed to spot each other. She was running a two person relay. She darted across the median and we high fived. Miles 8 and 9 were uphill and so my pace slowed here. I tried to keep the same effort and not force the pace. I got off the expressway and settled back into goal pace. The course went back through town and through all the spectators. So cool! I crossed the 10 mile mark right on schedule. I first felt fatigue around here and that concerned me. There was way too much race left. Goal pace started to get hard and my pace already started to slip, and thus began my rapid fade. I crossed the half split in 1:42. That was right where I wanted to be, but the fade was on and I knew there was no stopping it.
Miles 14-20: 8:15, 8:24, 8:57, 8:40, 8:26, 8:39, 8:54
After the half checkpoint, the course worked it’s way onto a bike path along Lake Champlain and through some residential areas for a couple of miles. Nice scenery, but I was too warm to care. The biggest hill of the course is up Battery Park Hill at mile 15 Someone said you can “hear it” coming, and that was a perfect description. Huge drums being banged and screaming spectators. The hill was a half mile at 13% grade and was lined with spectators shoulder to shoulder. I lumbered up the hill. It was tough but the crowd support was awesome. Strava says I ran the hill at 9:30 pace. I’m cool with that. The course trended downhill the last 10 miles, but I could not pick up the pace. I had given up the goal pace was just trying to keep ahead of PR pace (8:35). Even that got hard. I was trying to stay ahead of the 3:30 pace group but I knew they’d pass me eventually. I was hot and there was very little shade protection. I was suffering.
Miles 21-26.2: 8:55, 9:03, 9:19, 9:18, 9:15, 9:19
Begin the death march. I was ready for this to end. I had started dumping water on myself, something I had only done once before in a race. I also ran through any sprinkler I saw. I was trying anything to stay cool but with little success. I wanted to walk but kept telling myself to just keep running. Walking would only prolong this agony. The course turned back onto the bike path along the lake for the final four miles. Finally some shade protection, but too little too late. I did find a pace that I could maintain so I stayed there. Slow and steady. By now I just wanted to get the PR and be done with it. The bike path was pretty awesome though. When the path crossed the handful of intersections, there were so many spectators crowded around that there was only enough room for runners to comfortably go single file. It was nuts. I also got the “joy” of seeing relay runners flying past me left and right. I was envious of their fresh legs. With a mile to go, I could hear the circus that was the finish area. Almost there. Despite the assurance from some spectators that I was “looking good” and “looking strong”, I was fairly certain that I looked like hell. Approaching the finish line, I raised my arms in victory, because despite my rough race, it was not lost on me that I was about the cross the finish line of a marathon and with a seven minute PR to my credit. I crossed the finish line and immediately approached by a medic. I was fine for having just ran a marathon. I got my medal, grabbed a water, found a spot on the grass, and plopped down on my back exhausted. Marathon #4 is in the books.
The skinny:
Official time was 3:38:42. 7 minute PR
OA: 488 / 2613 (top 18%)
AG: 70 / 209
Goal missed by 13 minutes
12 minute positive split
So what happened?
Any advice, thoughts, constructive criticism here is welcome. I thought I trained well and would run faster. Was I not as well prepared as I thought I was? Was it just the heat? The temps got above 70 with little sun protection. This was only my second run this year in that kind of warmth. One could say I went out too fast, but 7:45 pace seemed reasonable. It’s not like I went out with guns blazing. It seemed like a fair goal. Maybe it was nutrition? Having a grumbling stomach before the race started certainly couldn’t have helped. Maybe it was a combination of everything.
While I didn’t hit my goal, I’m still ok with my race. I know a bunch of people that ran this and literally nobody hit their goal. I did the best I could, and let’s face it, a 3:38 marathon ain’t all bad. I’m running Philadelphia in November. I will reload and make some adjustments to my training.
Money can't buy that feeling.
Seems like a classic case of starting too fast for the conditions. That would be the conventional wisdom looking at how much you faded so soon. I'm not familiar with your recent race times. Besides the weather being a factor did you do any specific endurance workouts? Faster paced or fast finish long runs or 8-12 miles @ race pace? To get your marathon time to line up with your speed you need to do specific workouts to carry that speed, unless you're doing mega mileage or just an aerobic beast. But most mortals need some longish pace runs to supplement their mileage / speed.
Still, congrats on the PB!
Youth Has No Age. ~ Picasso / 1st road race: Charleston Distance Run 15 Miler - 1974 / profile
congrats phil!
i think coming back from surgery and getting into great running condition is impressive...as others have said, the heat when you're not really used to it hitting you for over three hours can be a real pain....maybe 1.5 hours in the heat can feel doable, but it sucks in a marathon when you're out there twice as long and the heat really rears its ugly head.
i generally struggle with pacing which leads me to another thought - the course...i think a hilly course can screw up your pacing...it seems like there were some nice sized hills you dealt with...it's difficult to dial in a pace when you're adjusting for hills and it's never guaranteed to get back the time on the downhills...i do think the course messed it up too.
anyway, i think cooler temps and a flatter course will be much better next time...at least it removes two of the variables...nice job on the pr which is always cool, rest up and be well!
marathon pr - 3:16
Healed Hammy
Gratz Baboon, you are an open book in these places, willing to share your accomplishments and fails with a smile and a happy demeanor. For that you are a winner.
One thought I have is how much the 13% grade took out of you. It could have sapped enough energy to make the remaining miles harder to reclaim pace. You wont have that problem in Philly which is basically a flat course save for a small hill that is not long. Add in some fast finish miles to your LR will help. Goo always says a progressive LR gives the most bang for the buck and that may help you to hold pace.
Philly BQ or Bust.
I don't know what kind of sadists schedule marathons this late in the season, when there is always a high risk of it being too hot anywhere in the country.
Two words; supply & demand. Specially where the half marathon is concerned as that is usually the bigger draw of the two but throw a marathon in there and they will come.
Though I am on my no summer marathon high horse now, when I found the Charlevoix Marathon back in the winter of 2012 I was besides myself! There was nothing anyone could have said to dissuade me as I was determined to pop my marathon cherry and I did.
I learned a lot about myself and marathons while training for Charlevoix (which is held in June) chiefly that I do not do well running long distances in heat. Be that as it is I am forever grateful that is was available for me to learn those lessons in the first place, which is why I speak with such conviction because as you know, experience is a mutha f*cka.
Just want to say congrats Phil. I know how hard you train and I think its a great time considering how hot it was. Cool that you also saw DW on the course. Enjoy the recovery.
Running is my mental-Ctrl-Alt-Del.
Congrats!! A few of my friends were complaining about the heat up there. Regardless you still have a PR and not many of us can say that on a hot day.
I told DW that if I had not trained so well, I probably would have been looking at a much bigger crash and burn. I think my fitness prevented this from being a complete disaster. I mean, people have missed their goals by a much bigger margin than 13 minutes.
This.
Having done a few hot marathons and talking to other runners after them about their goal and their final time, 20-30+ minutes including some walking isn't that unusual.
As far as the race, I do think the heat got to you. You can execute your training plan oh so well but Mother Nature can mess up your best laid plans by turning up the heat on race day. I hate that part of marathoning. But, then there's this:
The skinny: 7 minute PR
7 minute PR
A PR! That's really impressive in those conditions. Focus on that for now and then use the disappointment to motivate you for Philly.
Great job. Rest up and then go get that 3:20-3:25 this fall! Edited because of typo. I meant to type 3:20 but hit the "9" instead.
My blog is JT Running DC. It's awesome. Guide to Washington DC Area Running Routes. Guide to the New York City Marathon. Guide to the Boston Marathon. Guide to Running Gear. Guide to Running Clothes.
One thought I have is how much the 13% grade took out of you. It could have sapped enough energy to make the remaining miles harder to reclaim pace.
Seriously!
No different than any of us all you can do is learn from the negatives and build on the positives. This include everything that went down over the entire cycle right up to the time you set foot in the corral.
One thing that struck a chord with me is you feeling it a bit emotionally while waiting to start coming off of your injury and what not. I had a similar experience while standing in the corral of my second marathon and remember thinking there was no place in the world I would rather be at that moment than in that starting corral! Nothing else mattered.
Of course the race starts and you move on to compete and try to achieve your goals but I think it is good to remember how grateful you initially felt. That was real shit, and I can appreciate it.
Moth, thanks for popping in. I did a bunch of faster paced runs, but they were all shorter. The most GMP miles I did in one run was 8. That is something I will address when training for Philly. I definitely need to work on that.
Nevrgivup, thanks to you as well. Nice of you to stop in.
RSX , I appreciate the comments.
Julia, this is the first time heat has impacted my marathon. You are right though...all the training can't beat Mother Nature.
Ric, fourouta5, LRB: Regarding the hills, you can see on the pic LRB posted that the course is gently rolling. Well, except for what looks like two mountains. The first one isn't as bad as it looks. It's the last 1.5 miles of the expressway. It is not steep, but it's a steady 1.5 mile uphill. Nowhere near as bad as the profile might indicate, but it makes you work. The second hill is as bad as it looks and it certainly didn't help me. I didn't push hard going up that hill, but it was a tough hill. I've run plenty of bigger hills in training, but never at mile 15 of a 26 mile run at race effort. And you know what really friggin hurt? Check out that dip at mile 21.5. That killed my legs. My quads were screaming running down that thing.
Nice PR Phil. Nothing you can do about the weather. I'll echo what Moth wrote about the MP runs in training. I'm a big fan.
Are we there, yet?
Phil, don't underestimate the effects of direct sun in warm temps. That's what has nearly killed me in my July 4th 15K race last year and the 10K races on the Fourth the two preceding years. It was also my downfall at Ice Age earlier this month. Looking at the course profile it looks like that second big hill comes about in the same place as the Newton Hills in Boston and you know their reputation. I'm looking forward to seeing you in Philly when you'll hopefully have decent weather and the course is a little easier.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
race obsessed
Baboon
Nice report, I echo a few others. Emotions in the corral may have had profound effects on your race state. I get it, I fear that MCM will be the same for me in October.
You can't knock the sun beating down, I have found my hardest long runs have always been when the sun beat down. Even on nice days, any ray of sunlight just seems to pull the energy right out of a person.
And finally 13% grade for 1/2 mile? completely doable in the beginning where you have time to recover, but in the later half of the race when your reserves are being spent and your ability to recover is compromised is misery.
70F is no joke in a race. My 5k although at a much higher intensity had me boiling at the 2.5 mile and it was semi-shady.
Keep in mind in a race, especially a long race, your body can handle a couple of things well, but as each thing starts getting more intense and issues start adding up. (Don't discount the mental battle) your and your bodies coping mechanisms just break down. We train to resist that breakdown as long as possible, but eventually it will happen.
Great job and nice PR!
(BTW: my ACL surgery was 13+ years ago...I didn't run but it took me a few years to get back to 'normal' , congrats )