Trail Monster
So the second speed workout of my plan was more along what LTH advised. Shorter intervals, faster than 5k pace. Here's what I ended up with for 2 x 800 (half mile), 4 x 400 (quarter mile), 2 x 200 (.13 mile) using my Garmin on the rail trail.
warm up: 1 mile 9:51
0.5 miles: 3:38 (7:18 pace)
0.5 miles: 3:42 (7:25 pace)
0.25 miles: 1:49 (7:17 pace)
0.25 miles: 1:48 (7:16 pace)
0.25 miles: 1:47 (7:11 pace)
0.25 miles: 1:47 (7:10 pace)
0.13 miles: 0:54 (6:56 pace)
0.13 miles: 0:53 (6:52 pace)
0.13 miles: 0:53 (6:54 pace)
0.13 miles: 0:50 (6:28 pace)
cool down: 1 mile 9:59
recoveries were once again 1 minute per 400m of the interval.
I feel pretty good about this workout considering my 5k PR is 24:27. Not sure if I did this 'right' but I didn't think I could hit these paces regardless. Thoughts?
2013 races:
3/17 Shamrock Marathon
4/20 North Coast 24 Hour
7/27 Burning RIver 100M
8/24 Baker 50M
10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)
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Well, I'm not LtH, but I'll throw in my 2 cents
First, yes, you should feel good about the workout-- hitting paces you didn't know you could hit is always awesome, and I think it certainly indicates you have a bunch more speed than you think you do. You've been doing so much long-distance stuff you've given yourself a tremendous aerobic base, now all you need to do is sharpen a bit with speedwork (which you're doing).
As far as doing the workout 'right'... I question whether there is really a concrete line between 'right' and 'wrong' ways to do 'speedwork', but there is 'more optimal' and 'less optimal', so let's look at it from that point of view. Now, according to Daniels, there are 2 types of faster speedwork. There is fast running (which he calls 'I' pace, it's a little faster than your 5K pace) and really fast running (which he calls "R" pace, it's somewhat faster than your I pace).
Here is my favorite of the Daniels/VDOT pace calculators; given your 24:27 your I pace is roughly 7:38-7:43 depending on length of the interval, and your R pace is 7:06/mile.
So you could see this workout as a combination of I-paced intervals (you usually want your I-paced running to be 3-5 minutes, so 800m/0.5 miles is perfect for you) and R-paced repetitions (200m falls into this category).
Even though R-paced repetitions are shorter than I-pace intervals, you actually want the recoveries to be longer.
For I pace running, you want the recoveries on the shorter side so you can get back into a high aerobic zone more quickly-- I pace is to stress your aerobic system.
For R pace running, you want the recoveries to be long, so you can recovery completely, and really focus on speed and form for each one, without dealing as much with fatigue.
So... Sorry if I'm getting overly technical. What I would say in short--
1- Ladders are fun, but mix in other types of speed workouts from time to time (say, 6x800m, something like that) to really focus on one particular system, whether you're focusing on your aerobic system or focusing on speed/form
2- This is probably because you're still finding a pace that's sustainable yet tough, but you don't need to get faster on each repetition. Don't race the workout, aim for even pacing.
I hope this doesn't come off as critical, because I mean it as anything but. You are a total badass at long distances and I bet you're going to be pretty quick at short distances too now that you're putting the speedwork 'cherry' on top of the aerobic base you already have. The most important thing is to enjoy what you're doing, so if getting too technical about it bogs it down and makes it less fun, then don't do it.
Thanks Meaghan! I was trying to read and understand the Daniels' book last night. Your explanation is much easier. I think with the plan I'm trying that all the interval workouts are ladders. I will have to keep trying to cram Daniels through my thick skull and see if I can put a better plan together in a few weeks. As for getting faster, I think it is because I only do a one mile warm up. I usually take about 2.5-3 miles to get in the groove. I decided that running shouldn't interfere with the rest of my life for awhile so short warm ups and cool downs will probably be the norm which may result in me getting faster as I get revved up. I definitely did race the 200's but it felt good. I kept picturing my final kick of a 5k and visualizing pulling away and/or passing someone.
Are we there, yet?
A few general comments:
1) Your 5K PB is very soft for your fitness level. It wouldn't surprise me to see you run 23:30 or faster.
2) Don't stint on your warm-up. I'd suggest a few short strides after a 10-15 minute easy run to get you ready for the intervals.
3) This may be personal preference because I can't find anything definitive to support it, but I suggest jogging your recovery. It keeps your HR up which means you get back to training effect HR sooner in each interval.
4) Be careful about racing the last interval. You want to finish the workout feeling like you could do a little more.
5) Also from my experience most speed work related injuries come either from inadequate warm up or pushing too hard when tired.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
Familiarity breeds confidence, confidence breeds success on race day.
As you continue with these workouts, invariably, you find yourself repeating them. It is at that time when one of running's main tenants; "The race is against ourselves", will make itself true to you, because you will be comparing yourself against your workouts.
Of the 14 or so speed workouts I have done this year, about 7 of them form the foundation of my speed program. As you go deeper into some of the cookie cutter workouts, do not be afraid to tweak them to your liking.
You will also start paying attention to other runners workouts, or solicit ideas from them. One of the hardest workouts I have ever done came from fellow group member SIAR; 2 X 800, 1 X 1600, 2 X 800 at or around 1 mile pace.
That workout kicked my ass! I struggled mightily the entire time and never did run my target pace that day, but I hung in there and completed the stupid thing. Then, I went out five days later and whacked 30 seconds off of my 1 mile personal best!
If it has not happened already, at some point you will start daydreaming about Tuesday's and Saturday's at the track. For it is there where familiarity and confidence collide, creating the runner you will ultimately become.
I think I will add SIAR's workout to one of my days! It sounds like fun! Although I have no idea what my mile time should be. 7:30 maybe?
It was anything but fun I can assure you, but driving home from that race sure as hell was!
It is hard to say what your 1 mile time should be, but based on the vdot chart, the 1 mile time associated with your 5k PR of 24:29 is 7:17. So your actual 1 mile time would be a bit faster than that.
As George has opined though, your 5k PR is probably not indicative of your current fitness, and thus your 1 mile projected time might be closer to 7:00 flat, or better.
Fun! Fun! I will try 7:15 the first time and 7:00 the next time. Thanks for the torture!
One of the hardest workouts I have ever done came from fellow group member SIAR; 2 X 800, 1 X 1600, 2 X 800 at or around 1 mile pace.
This is NOT a workout I would recommend. It is much too hard. If you slowed the pace to 5K pace and took a half the distance jog recovery it would serve you better. If you are familiar with Daniels you know he is dead set against running workouts too fast at what he calls "quality junk" paces.
This is NOT a workout I would recommend. It is much too hard.
It was extremely tough, both mentally and physically. I do not think she is running that anytime soon though.
I don't think anyone should run that. That workout asks you to run an all-out race effort mile sandwiched between sets of 2 x 800m at that same pace. It would be hard enough at 5K pace. At mile race pace it's self-destructive.
I adjusted on the fly and my paces varied for each set. If I recall correctly, I ran the 800's at my then mile pace, and the 1600 at my tempo pace. I averaged 6:24 for the workout, which was 6 seconds slower than my 5k pace.
At mile race pace it's self-destructive.
As far as it being a self-destructive workout, I am not ready to declare that.
"R" pace (which is actually faster than 1 mile pace) 800 intervals are plentiful in Daniels 5k training plan. Dropping those down to at or around mile pace, and throwing in 1600 meters at or around mile pace while challenging, should not destroy a conditioned runner.
If it proves however, that that is the case, then I will be the first to admit it. You obviously have more experience than I, and your own way of doing things. For where I was at the time I tried it though, it was something different.
There were quite a few workouts that I tried this year that I will not run again. That one in particular, was not one of them.
I tend to agree with George. Based on my experience of running an all-out mile-- the idea of doing an all-out mile between a set of 800s at that pace and another 800s at that pace seems, at best, counterproductive.
"R" pace (which is actually faster than 1 mile pace) 800 intervals are plentiful in Daniels 5k training plan.
FWIW Daniels does prescribe 800m "R" paced reps for anyone who's running them slower than 2:30-- which means he doesn't recommend them for anyone slower than a 60 VDOT (17:00 5K pace).
I think the term all out mile is being misused. Depending on where a person is in their training, running mile pace does not necessariily equate to running an all out mile.
As for the virtues of running 1600's at mile pace (whatever that means to an individual) there are those who advocate them, and those who do not. And yes, the speed or ability at which one runs, or can run them matters.