delicate flower
As I mentioned in the weekend dailies, I ran a 5K this past Saturday. "Battle Day 5K Road Race" in Bennington, VT. After running a very strong 18 miles Friday afternoon, I had little expectations going into this race knowing my legs would be tired (understatement). DW and I were visiting her cousin in Vermont, and Cousin wanted to do this race. Since Saturday is my "run whatever" day, I figured why not. I could have just taken it easy, but when I pay for a race and line up for it, I'm going to race. I'm just not wired to go easy.
I jogged 1.25 miles for a warm up. I tried to throw some strides in but my legs were toast, as expected. So I just tried to get loose. I figured my legs would wake up when the race started. They didn't.
This is a small local race. Timing was done by a guy with a little handheld computer with adding tape. Being Battle Day in town, which is a celebration of the town's Revolutionary War history, a cannon blast signaled the start of the race. We all knew the blast was coming, but we all jumped anyway. I lined up in the second row. *BOOM* and we were off.
Mile 1: 6:38. I visualized my track workouts and tried to simulate the pace and effort. Half mile in though, my legs were done. Never before have I felt like this so early into the race. I figured I would just try to maintain the race effort until I had to pack it in. If nothing else, maybe I could get a couple miles of quality work in. A downhill start allowed for a fast pace.
Mile 2: 6:56. Looks like a fade on paper, but really wasn't due to the downhill start. My legs were screaming. What the hell was I thinking? I saw Cousin then DW after the turnaround. I managed a pathetic wave. The course was all rolling hills, and the ups were absolutely killing me and breaking my spirit.
Mile 3.1: 7:00 (6:23 kick). I much as I was hurting, I knew I was managing to put together a respectable race. I expected to crash and burn but I hung in there. The last half mile was uphill and I was dying. My PR time didn't click by until the final tenth a mile. Not bad. I finished on fumes. I had to walk around for about five minutes until the wheezing stopped.
21:07 official time. Finished 14/106 OA and 4th in my AG (not sure out of how many) This was my second fastest 5K. PR time is 20:42, so I'm pretty happy about coming within 25 seconds of that on very tired legs. All in all, not too shabby. I do wonder how much fatigue cost me or how fast I'd have run on rested legs. I think sub-20 might have been doable but I'll never know.
So now I have a 10K this Sunday. Can I use this race as a gauge for that? 10K PR is 43:16 (6:58 pace), which I'd like to beat. McMillan says a 21:07 5K equates to a 43:51 10K. I don't know if I can factor in leg fatigue and/or rolling course (the 10K is completely flat), or if I should just toss this one out considering how tired I was going into it. Thoughts? Comments? Insults?
BTW, MBC and her cousin both won their age groups, and DW PR'd. She is on a roll....two AG awards in her last two races.
<3
Uffda
Nice race Baboon. Actually great race considering your leg fatigue. It makes you wonder what you can do on fresh legs.
My fastest 10k was when I was towards the end of my training for my first marathon. I actually ran just over my pace for my 5k PR. I definitely think the higher endurance allows you to run the 10k faster than what something like a pace calculator can predict. If I were you I'd pace it evenly (if that's smart) and shoot for something in the 42 minute range.
- Andrew
Former Bad Ass
Damn, even if your legs are done, you are fast! Nice job!
Damaris
Healed Hammy
Nice run Phil, on tired legs to boot. You have several forces here at work in your question.
1. Do you want to focus on the 10k for a PR despite being in the middle of MRT?
2. Are you capable of a PR given your current level of fitness?
3. Do you want to PR and endure the pain associated with a hard 10k?
Your overall 5k PR seems to indicate you have the ability to run a fast 10k, and this race on tired legs confirms that. A 5k is more about leg strength than endurance, and your 18m run clearly depleted part of your muscle energy. Not so much on the glycogen, and a 22 sec slow down per mile indicates to me more tiredness than a crash.
I would run easy miles this week, perhaps cut down on one double to let your legs recover given that you will have 6 days between races. Shoot for a 6:50 pace for the 10k remembering to try for even splits, and recognize this is more endurance needed than the 5k (watch what you eat the night before). If the weather looks cooperative, give it a shot, otherwise don't worry since you are not peaking for this race.
uʍop ǝpᴉsdn sǝʇᴉɹʍ ʇI
You are training for a marathon, not a 5k. You know that your legs will be knackered for the next few months. Considering that, to be so close to your 5k PR is a hell of an effort. Some people don't understand when I say that sometimes a 5k can feel harder than a marathon. When you run your marathon in November (?) you will be so fit I bet you won't be walking about and wheezing for five minutes like you did after the 5k. Be careful on the 10k. If it was me I would see how my legs feel on race day and if you are not as fresh as you like, maybe back off a bit. I'm like you in that when I sign up and the gun goes, I race the SOB. I will be in the same predicament on Sunday for a HM. Just be smart about it. I want you to BQ just as much as you do.
Brr and fourouta5, I think 6:45 - 6:50 pace is right in my wheelhouse and that's sort of what I had in mind (41:59 / 6:45 pace would be a great result). I ran the PR back in April and I was nowhere near the shape I am in now. I do think I am in PR shape. I want to run this 10K to the best of my ability. This 10K will give me an idea of what to shoot for in my HM three weeks from now, and that HM will give me an idea of where I am with my marathon training. I am not treating this 10K as a stand alone race though and will train through it. I'll ease up for the three days going into it and will be in the low 50's for mileage this week (about a 20% cutback).
Yeah Phil - you should take advantage of your high level of fitness while you can. I'd definitely follow your plan.
Are we there, yet?
I think something around 42:00 is realistic, especially if you have an easy day or two before the race. Your race shows a lot of strength right now and you can run pretty good times strictly on strength without a lot of race specific speed work.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
KillJoyFuckStick
x 1,000,000
Focus on the war and not the small battles.
You people have issues
Congratulations, Phil! I agree that 42:something sounds very reasonable. But if it doesn't happen, don't stress over it. Your marathon is the prime goal, here.
PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013
Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013
18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010
Barking Mad To Run
good lord...an 18-miler on Friday and then all that speed on Saturday...I can only dream...
Congrats!
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." Theodore Roosevelt
Brr and fourouta5, I think 6:45 - 6:50 pace is right in my wheelhouse and that's sort of what I had in mind (41:59 / 6:45 pace would be a great result). I ran the PR back in April and I was nowhere near the shape I am in now. I do think I am in PR shape. I want to run this 10K to the best of my ability.
There is just too much going on there for anyone to know anything, but understanding that the 10k is an incredibly tough distance to race I would simply suggest that you go out conservatively (3 to 7 seconds off goal pace) and not blow your wad during the first two miles.
That would put you in a 6 to 14 second deficit at the halfway point but better that and finishing strong trying to make it up than dropping 10 to 15 seconds per mile for the last 4 miles as a result of going out too fast. That is of course if conditions allow, if not then just do the best you that you can.
Good luck with whatever you decide!
PS: you have the energy of a jack rabbit yo!
race obsessed
Late reply:
Good job on the 5k!
I wish my marathon training tired legs would only ting me for 25 seconds! Sheeit. I'm getting slammed for over 1.5 minutes. Great gas but crap-all in the legs.
Echo Jack. big time.
I am having to learn the same thing and it is an unpleasant pill. But with help of my coach I am keeping my sights on my goal race, not the 'here and there' shorter races. (though you better damn believe I am trying to dominate)
As far as the 10k expectations, I can only tell you what I have been slowing grasping:
1. Train through and I hope you enter the 10k on fatigued legs, not because I wish you ill will but because fatigue will be your governor.
1A. Fatigued legs (truly fatigued) will keep you from jack rabbiting.
2. It is a race so you will have the atmosphere to help and you want to do well: You will find an unpleasant equilibrium in pace. It will feel like hell but your engine will be strong and you will be able to hold on for longer than you think is possible.
3. Roughly 2-3 miles in you will start to find pacers, find your mark and stick to him, unless he/ she falls back - then pick your next one. Work up the ladder until there is someone that feels uncomfortable to stay with. (not difficult - just uncomfortable - pushing a little harder and breathing a little heavy. *NOW* relax... just focus on a smooth stride.)
3A. If you find yourself gasping, coughing or having an issue grabbing a breath, consider your pacer might be too fast. *UNLESS* he also is gasping. In which case I hope you are 400 meters out. Hang on and bust his ass. If you are more than a mile or so out, you both are probably pushing each other too fast.
Lastly, you can't predict your pacing very well in these conditions, so as I have alluded too above: run by feel
Race smart, be confident, be attentive and leave no competitor standing.
There is just too much going on there for anyone to know anything...
I just wanted to clarify that the above comment was not directed at anyone who has given advice here, I was actually speaking for myself because trying to make sense of it all made my head spin.
pffft... I'm offended. I'll have to go out and break something... oh woe ...