uʍop ǝpᴉsdn sǝʇᴉɹʍ ʇI
Hi.
I am now training for my first marathon. I am in week four of the Pfitz 18/55 plan. I have run several HMs and my fastest pace was 7:19. I have been running consistently for about 18 months. According to McMillian a reference book I have, my long run pace should be around 8:40 - 8:50. Every time I run my legs seem to settle on a pace of somewhere around 8:20-8:30. I have to force myself to slow down and when I do, I feel as though I am plodding along with heavy feet. For example, today I ran 14 miles and my average pace was 8:19. I was not running hard, I was not pushing, and now I feel good. My legs are a bit tired, but I think that is because of the hills in my area. My question is this: Is my long run pace closer to what I ran today (8:19) or do I need to force myself to slow down to the 8:40? I want to train smartly and efficiently and avoid injury because I really want to "race" my marathon and not just run it. Sorry for going on and on and thanks for any advice. If you need more info on my times or running, feel free to ask.
Former Bad Ass
That is a difficult question to answer. If your 7:19 HM pace is current, then the MP would be what? 7:40ish? If so, the long runs should be at 60-90 seconds off the MP, or yes, 8:40 or slower. If you look at the Pfitz book, he advocates something similar and the LRs should be at
74% - 84% effort. What GMP are you using?
The problem with the marathon is that it is an endurance event and running those LRs too fast will not provide you with the amount of time of your feet and endurance you will need on race day. That is only on easy LRs and not the ones that he wants you to run MP, etc.
Having said that, it could be 7:19 is no longer your HM pace and you have improved, but if it's recent and accurate, sounds like you are running your LRs a tad fast. I don't really trust effort because I can run LRs at MP and feel the same way, but they are too fast for me.
YMMV.
Damaris
Are we there, yet?
Which race time did you use with McMillan to calculate your training paces? You should use your best recent time regardless of race distance. Using your 5K or 10K time I get 7:42 - 8:57 as the range for your long runs, so 8:20-8:30 fits comfortably within that range.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
I am in week four of the Pfitz 18/55 plan.
If you are truly running easy by effort, I would guess that water will find its level as you get deeper into Pfitz, and your easy effort will adjust accordingly. As a result, those 8:19's will not come as easy, but 8:40's probably will.
I thought he said it was a HM, which made it sound too fast. I wonder if he is not in better shape than the 7:19.
Wc: I used my HM time and it gives me a pace of 7:49-9:04. That is a wide range.
Docket: Sorry, but what is GMP? What you say makes sense. Some of the longer runs on the plan are tempo runs... 18 miles w 12 @ MP, for example.
LRB: I think so. With these longer runs I am heading into uncharted territory. Next week I have my first ever 15 miler. I just want to be smart about it.
I wonder if he is not in better shape than the 7:19.
This was my first thought as well.
GMP in this context is usually Goal Marathon Pace.
The long run should have a very wide range. It can be very slow, almost recovery effort, to fairly hard but short of tempo effort. Pace also depends on where in the workout sequence it falls because sometimes you will be running on tired legs and sometimes well rested. It's not like interval or tempo pace as something well-defined in a narrow range but encompasses virtually the entire GA (general aerobic) range of effort or pace.
Ahhhh... I am not too familiar with many acronyms. My GMP, at least now, is 7:45 or so.
Jack, it's likely that your first Pfitz cycle will be a time of great improvement.
To touch on what D said about endurance, that is a concern to stay aware of. However, if you're running around 8:30 and it feels easy into the further miles of an LR, you may want to sometimes tack on a few more miles instead of "forcing" a slower pace. (I would do this on your general LR days, not the ones with MP chunks.)
Nobody wants to see how slowly you can run a marathon
Smaller By The Day
McMillan and other pace calculators are guides. Just like it might predict a time for the marathon or half marathon that you don't feel is quite realistic, it's not going to be 100% accurate on training paces either. It's a good guide, and starting point.
A lot of my long runs are pace specific with portions at marathon pace, or tempo pace. When they aren't pace specific, I like to do them as a progression run . I'll start the long run on the very conservative end of my easy pace, and pick it up by about 15 seconds per mile a quarter of the way through. Then, I take about 15 seconds off of that about half of the way through. I continue like that until the last quarter is a full minute per mile faster than I started. I've basically covered the entire range of recommended easy pace, but I know I'm going to get through the distance feeling good, and not struggle because I started too fast. That's just me though.
I would just make sure that you're being honest with yourself. Easy pace should be easy. If the pace you've been using for your long runs is easy, then there you go. Keep it simple.
Improvements
Weight 100 pounds lost
5K 31:02 Sept. 2012 / 23:36 Sept. 2013 (Same Course)
10K 48:59 April 2013
HM 2:03:56 Nov. 2012 / 1:46:50 March 2013
MARATHON 3:57:33 Nov. 2013
Agreed that you are in better shape than the 7:19 half time. Is that an old time or did you not run all-out effort? If you have built fitness since then or didn't run as fast as you possible could, then that matters.
Maybe you're not used to running easy effort. Lots of runners think they should be working harder than they should for an easy effort. As you train more and the cumulative fatigue sets in, I bet you'll be running slower. Even my easy pace (while certainly not as fast as yours) feels hard to maintain towards the end of a long run. Easy pace for me is 90-120 seconds slower than my goal marathon pace, and a good 3 minutes slower than my best half marathon pace. The training paces I am using (which feel like they are suitable for me) I got from several calculators- McMillan and Daniels'- and point to marathon times faster than I am aiming for this training cycle.
Factor in the heat as well if you live in an area where heat and humidity can be oppressive.
Great info, thanks guys!
My HM PR was only about six weeks ago so I don't think I am in much better shape, maybe a bit. I have been adding miles, however. It sounds like I should slow down some, though I think I will once the general fatigue sets in, like msmrow said. I looked at the weeks and months ahead and it looks intimidating but I think I can do it (though I might have to tweak it a bit). I just want to run a smart race and kill it at the same time.
This doesn't answer your question about specific pace numbers, but I thought I'd throw this out there as well. Since you're doing Pfitz, I would consider doing most of the long runs the way he suggests (see pp. 137-138 of the 2nd edition). To build on what Docket mentioned - for those who don't speak effort/HR (he says 74-84% max HR or 65-78% max HRR) - he suggests to run most long runs 10-20% slower than GMP. Of course it's difficult to hit this pace right away, so he suggests to start out slow and pick up the pace so the last 5-10 miles are about 10% slower than GMP.
fwiw, my long runs are my fastest of my easy runs, if you could lump long runs in with easy runs.
Thanks! I had forgotten about the equivalency. 10%
should be around 1mm slower. Makes
sense.
This doesn't answer your question about specific pace numbers, but I thought I'd throw this out there as well. Since you're doing Pfitz, I would consider doing most of the long runs the way he suggests (see pp. 137-138 of the 2nd edition). To build on what Docket mentioned - for those who don't speak effort/HR (he says 74-84% max HR or 65-78% max HRR) - he suggests to run most long runs 10-20% slower than GMP. Of course it's difficult to hit this pace right away, so he suggests to start out slow and pick up the pace so the last 5-10 miles are about 10% slower than GMP. fwiw, my long runs are my fastest of my easy runs, if you could lump long runs in with easy runs.