Charlotte, NC area runners

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Week of 14-20JAN2013 (Read 175 times)

    I enjoy running with the GCR folks as well, which is the primary reason I show up to the fast workouts, even though they are not doing me any favors in getting my quads healed.

     

    I am trying to follow a training plan, but had to bail on today's workout (this is becoming a theme with me) which called for 3 miles at HM pace, modified it to 3 X mile at HM + 20 sec with a one min "breather" between the repeats.  Not sure if I can keep this up when the plan wants me to do 6 miles at HM pace in a month while also increasing the mileage to 45 MPW.

      This past fall I had been doing two speed workouts per week and was wondering if that was too much.  Looking at Rob's response, I think perhaps it was too much and in the future will keep it to one speed session per week.

      You could always try the compromise: run a "workout" every ten days or so.  I figure I'm going to feel less than great the day (or maybe two) after a hard workout.  The trick is balancing that against overworking to the point of actual injury.

      “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

        I am trying to follow a training plan, but had to bail on today's workout (this is becoming a theme with me) which called for 3 miles at HM pace, modified it to 3 X mile at HM + 20 sec with a one min "breather" between the repeats.  Not sure if I can keep this up when the plan wants me to do 6 miles at HM pace in a month while also increasing the mileage to 45 MPW.

        Dude!  HMP should be slightly slower than tempo (LT) pace.  I know you're in shape to run a 3mi (25-30 min) tempo, so what's going on?

        “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman


        On the road back

          Paul - Hope the calf is feeling better.  Thanks for asking the question, though.  I learned some things from Clive and Rob's responses.

           

          The purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others.  Wink

          2013 Goals: Run more. Smile while I do it. Complete 2 marathons in a year. (1 down, 1 to go)

            Dude!  HMP should be slightly slower than tempo (LT) pace.  I know you're in shape to run a 3mi (25-30 min) tempo, so what's going on?

            Plan calls for 3 miles at target HMP.  Maybe my target is too high?  My PR is 8:30 pace, but everyone says I should be able to do better, so picked the next round number and tried going with 8 min pace.  I need to readjust that back to 8:20-8:30 pace as set by my most recent race back in June, even that might be a bit optimistic as my running lately has not been at the same level

             

            That Hansons Target paces based training might get folks into trouble, if picking a random round number like me

             

            I really have to run a race to set realistic goals

              Plan calls for 3 miles at target HMP.  Maybe my target is too high?  My PR is 8:30 pace, but everyone says I should be able to do better, so picked the next round number and tried going with 8 min pace.  I need to readjust that back to 8:20-8:30 pace as set by my most recent race back in June, even that might be a bit optimistic as my running lately has not been at the same level

               

              I really have to run a race to set realistic goals

              Shashi, you broke the cardinal rule!  You set your targets based upon actual and current performance. Not a PR set a year or two (or more?) ago. Or from a race several months ago prior to an injury. Now I'll bet this "everyone" are those same people fr your Sad Panda team -- didn't we tell you not to listen to those folks or follow their advice? You can take a current 5k or 8k or whatever, and then punch that time into any of the online calculators to derive an equivalent time for something up to a 1/2 marathon, and then use that to derive your training paces. If you don't have a current race, that is why it is always a good idea to either run a race or time trial every 4-6 weeks so that you such a time in order to derive training paces (this way, you can refresh your training paces and if your gaining fitness your race or time trial will support faster paces). If you don't do this and base it upon expected or a goal, what happens is that your workout paces are mismatched (and your body will never be able to achieve this). For example, a rule of thumb would be one's mile pace is 30 sec faster vs. their 5k pace, and one's 5k pace is 25-30 sec faster then their LT Tempo (LT Tempo is ~10 mile). So you can end up running your LT Tempo efforts at 5k (VO2Max) which would essentially be 100% or race efforts, and your VO2Max intervals at significantly faster efforts than reasonable -- the result would be that your not going to be able to finish these intervals, you'll be extremely over-trained and ripe for injury since your two workouts per week are essentially two race efforts per week! I've never followed these plans, but do they have you plug in a goal time and then the paces over the first 6-8 weeks are based on that goal? Or do they want you to run a time trial or race very 3-4 weeks so that you refresh these paces based upon actual fitness (if not, that seems crazy unless they back of the goal pace by 15%-20% in the beginning)?

               

              Joe, there is nothing wrong with running two workouts (and one long run) per week in a given training program. Assuming your doing something different for these workouts and not running something like 12/16 x 1/4 mile 2x p week. Its more about how you space those workouts out and never do them on consecutive days. And as Cliff stated, you can also test a program where you do 2 workouts/long run one week, then one workout/long run the following week (many do this to minimize injury and/or avoid overtraining). You should also run strides 2x or 3x per week (or 2x and 1x hill sprints per week) but as a rule of thumb these should not exceed 15 seconds or so (running these is very beneficial and as long as you walk or lightly jog the same distance on the recovery they will not stress the body similar to a speed workout).

              Rob


              Run Long, and Prosper!

                Rob - Great insight and I think I found at least one problem, perhaps two with my training prior to my knee issues.  1st problem was I was doing the same workout twice a week: 6x .35 mile hill repeats at 5k pace with 100-ft gain.  Based on your comments this is, perhaps, too long of a repeat.  My rational for the longer repeat was that my races tend to be longer so the repeats should be longer. I'm not focused on improving my 5k and 10k times (if its a byproduct, great); my focus is to improve my ultra and martahon times. I was thinking about incorporating 800m or 1600m intervals and a Tempo run into my training. Would appreciate any additional thoughts/advice you or anyone else might have.

                "Leave all the afternoon for exercise and recreation, which are as necessary as reading. I will rather say more necessary because health is worth more than learning."

                 

                   - Thomas Jefferson

                 

                  Rob,  Good advice as always. I know I was over reaching with that goal HMP, there is nothing in my history or training that suggests I can do a 1:44 HM right now. The 2 X mile on Tuesday averaged 7:24 pace on soft soggy dirt track (7:12 and 7:36, I ran the second one much easier not wanting to make it a race effort), so I am guessing my 5K is around 7:45 pace right now, and optimistic HM pace to be around 8:30 (adding 15-20 sec/mile each time I double the distance) and set that as a realistic goal pace for the spring races.  Not that I can do that right now, but will be a target.  I will run another Time trial or a race soon  to get more accurate training paces.

                    ... I was doing the same workout twice a week: 6x .35 mile hill repeats at 5k pace with 100-ft gain.  Based on your comments this is, perhaps, too long of a repeat.  My rational for the longer repeat was that my races tend to be longer so the repeats should be longer. I'm not focused on improving my 5k and 10k times (if its a byproduct, great); my focus is to improve my ultra and marathon times. I was thinking about incorporating 800m or 1600m intervals and a Tempo run into my training. Would appreciate any additional thoughts/advice you or anyone else might have.

                    Joe, my approach is to view each kind of workout for the physiological response it's intended to elicit.  For hill repeats, there are several ways to do them (I've seen everything from short hill sprints to long runs up and down mountains), depending on what you're trying to get out of the workout.  In any event, the focus still is on what those hill repeats are doing to/for you and not necessarily how closely they match up with your preferred race distance/effort.

                     

                    Behold!  An ARTICLE and a VIDEO (oooh, Grace Padilla!) from Pete Magill.

                    “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

                      Rob,  Good advice as always. I know I was over reaching with that goal HMP, there is nothing in my history or training that suggests I can do a 1:44 HM right now. The 2 X mile on Tuesday averaged 7:24 pace on soft soggy dirt track (7:12 and 7:36, I ran the second one much easier not wanting to make it a race effort), so I am guessing my 5K is around 7:45 pace right now, and optimistic HM pace to be around 8:30 (adding 15-20 sec/mile each time I double the distance) and set that as a realistic goal pace for the spring races.  Not that I can do that right now, but will be a target.  I will run another Time trial or a race soon  to get more accurate training paces.

                      My two cents: you need to race more.  Not only do you get more frequent fitness checks, but you also gain valuable "battle" experience that itself will improve your race times.  Browsing your races, the pace would have kind of a bell-curve graph to it.  What's the cause of the mid-race slowing?  You seemed to have some energy at the end of the China Grove 5k, so it doesn't look like you went out too hard and cratered.  Going out too fast?

                       

                      I read somewhere that people are very good at preparing for the beginning and end of races, but that they routinely fail to visualize or have a plan for the middle portion.  I've been working on visualizing and planning paces for that portion of my races, precisely to stay "in the moment" and not have my otherwise-traditional pace sag.  Might that work for you, too?

                      “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

                        Rob - Great insight and I think I found at least one problem, perhaps two with my training prior to my knee issues.  1st problem was I was doing the same workout twice a week: 6x .35 mile hill repeats at 5k pace with 100-ft gain.  Based on your comments this is, perhaps, too long of a repeat.  My rational for the longer repeat was that my races tend to be longer so the repeats should be longer. I'm not focused on improving my 5k and 10k times (if its a byproduct, great); my focus is to improve my ultra and martahon times. I was thinking about incorporating 800m or 1600m intervals and a Tempo run into my training. Would appreciate any additional thoughts/advice you or anyone else might have.

                        Joe, My two cents, I agree w/Cliff (not Clive) that each kind of workout for the physiological response it's intended to elicit.  And more importantly its all about plan (in terms of workout mix over your 4 week or 5 week or ? cycle). You want to hit all energy/body systems so that you build a solid fitness base across all energy systems (versus targeting just speed or marathon pace for example), so you should incorporate intervals and tempos into your training and different pacing to focus on V02Max (800/1000/1200/1600) , speed (300/400/500), LT & AT Tempos). If you mix these workouts monthly on a consistent basis you'll build fitness. If you focus only on marathon type training (long repeats, &/or at marathon pace), you will stagnate and actually "de-train" (or stagnate) because your body will adapt. Your weekly long run will give you the endurance you need (plus I would add a mid-week mid-long run every other week or more). When you get to 8 weeks fr a target marathon, you would then lock in the intervals to more of marathon pace (increasing the # of intervals, lengthen your AT Tempo to 60 min but not to forget to do a speed workout and then a VO2Max workout every three out of four).

                         

                        My comment about the hill repeats is more of personal experience and recovery. You can recover quickly fr hill sprints, they improve your bio-mechanics and they don't take up one of your workout slots. Running 6 x .35 mi at 5k up a hill would involve a lot of pounding for me that I would want to avoid. If I opt to longer hill work, once a month I will try to run my long run where I either focus on feeling strong on any incline, or a "fast finish" where the end of the run is uphill.

                        Rob


                        Run Long, and Prosper!

                           If you focus only on marathon type training (long repeats, &/or at marathon pace), you will stagnate and actually "de-train" (or stagnate) because your body will adapt.

                          Rob, I hadn't considered this but it makes sense. A lot of the newer exercise routines like P90X incorporate many different exercises for the same muscle group for this same reason, I just didn't connect it to running workouts until your last post.

                           

                          Cliff, great article, I've bookmarked it and plan on incorporating many of the workouts

                          "Leave all the afternoon for exercise and recreation, which are as necessary as reading. I will rather say more necessary because health is worth more than learning."

                           

                             - Thomas Jefferson

                           

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