Low HR Training

123

MAF success! (Read 1308 times)


Don't overstride!

    After an ego adjustment and taking 5 away from my MAF number,  my aerobic system found another gear. My current MAF is 127 and find my HR drifting below 120 on my  long runs and the hills that I had to walk I now jog! This method always made sense to me, but to finally see some progress is so cool! 

     

    Starting MAF ~15:00

    Current MAF ~11:00.

    jimmyb


      Wow. That's amazing progress (27%). Nice work!

      How long did it take for you to do that?

       

      And welcome to the council of the unlurked, Dave!

      --JimmyCool

      Log    PRs


      Don't overstride!

        I have been at it about sixteen weeks now and have been averaging 5 hours a week. I would like to build up to 10 hours like Lydiard suggests, but I think 5 hours is all I can handle at the moment.

         

        I liked your sub-MAF posts! I am thinking of using this in my build up. How many weekly hours would be sufficient to safely qualify for Boston?

        jimmyb


          I have been at it about sixteen weeks now and have been averaging 5 hours a week. I would like to build up to 10 hours like Lydiard suggests, but I think 5 hours is all I can handle at the moment.

           

          I liked your sub-MAF posts! I am thinking of using this in my build up. How many weekly hours would be sufficient to safely qualify for Boston?

           

          Goes to show you that you don't have to kill yourself to see aerobic progress.

           

          I'm not sure what posts you are talking about, but thanks!

           

          When I qualified for Boston (needed 3:30:59 or better), my MAF tests were between 9-9:30 pace (average pace for 5 miles--just look at my late 2005 through 2006 MAF tests). I was using +5 at the time. That MAF test pace equated to 3:28-3:30 in the marathon, with no wall. When I got my tests into the 8:00's, I was able to run 3:22, again no wall, evenly split halves.

           

          I'm not sure how old you are, or what time you need to BQ. But that should give you some idea about where your MAF tests paces need to be for a 3:30 marathon.

           

          When MAF base training with a marathon in mind, I often use a large HR spread and reach MAF at the end of the run. I might start out at MAF-15 and try to hold the same pace for the entire run--my HR would drift up to MAF by the end of the run. My preference is to run an even pace over one that keeps slowing down. Although, maybe running at MAF for the entire long run, going from fast to slow is superior, but I have found both ways work well enough.

           

          --Jimmy

          Log    PRs

            congrats on your success!

             

            yeah I think the method is great, what is not so great is it can be hard to find the right number. either for ego or other reasons Smile but once you "lock" onto the right zone, it almost looks like magic.

             

            (in my case, funnily enough, I had to add a few beats instead of subtracting to find this magic-like effect. but then it was really really good. the even funnier thing was I was not even trying to use the MAF stuff at the time I stumbled onto this.)


            Don't overstride!

              Thanks! But, the heat and humidity is making difficult to find a good day to do a MAF test. I think I am going to try the treadmill at the Gym. So one can actually run at a too low a HR? I find that now that I am improving  my heart rate drops underneath 120 sometimes. Its like there is a cliff right under 125. I used to set my bottom alarm at 55 I guess I will need to move up to MAF -10 or so. Smile

                Thanks! But, the heat and humidity is making difficult to find a good day to do a MAF test. I think I am going to try the treadmill at the Gym. So one can actually run at a too low a HR? I find that now that I am improving  my heart rate drops underneath 120 sometimes. Its like there is a cliff right under 125. I used to set my bottom alarm at 55 I guess I will need to move up to MAF -10 or so. Smile

                 

                 

                what I meant is I found that if I ONLY ran at a "too low" heart rate, then no improvement.

                 

                but, don't worry it doesn't mean you shouldn't run at such a HR sometimes for recovery- it can be very very good for recovery and in this way it can contribute to improvements. just don't do it exclusively (i.e. no other runs) if you want improvement

                 

                as for treadmill: don't try to compare those times to outdoor runs. you can compare between different treadmill runs though. also, make sure it is the same treadmill.

                jimmyb


                   

                   

                  but, don't worry it doesn't mean you shouldn't run at such a HR sometimes for recovery- it can be very very good for recovery and in this way it can contribute to improvements. just don't do it exclusively (i.e. no other runs) if you want improvement

                   

                  I don't disagree with your experience, C. I'm sure you did a full, lengthy experiment using sub MAF heart rates and found that absolutely nothing happened. I do  disagree with the belief you are imparting. There have been several people here, along with myself, who have trained at sub-MAF heart rates that have seen improvement. My fastest marathon came off a base period using mostly MAF -10 and below (which was part of an experiment in high volume, I went low to reduce stress).  Dr. Phil also writes about such athletes and that many have turned themselves into fine endurance athletes using HR's below that ten beat zone below MAF. Like any form of training, you have to find your optimum training load with using HR's that low. There's a certain amount of volume you will have to hit before you see a steady improvement.

                   

                  --Jimmy

                  Log    PRs

                    I don't disagree with your experience, C. I'm sure you did a full, lengthy experiment using sub MAF heart rates and found that absolutely nothing happened. I do  disagree with the belief you are imparting. There have been several people here, along with myself, who have trained at sub-MAF heart rates that have seen improvement. My fastest marathon came off a base period using mostly MAF -10 and below (which was part of an experiment in high volume, I went low to reduce stress).  Dr. Phil also writes about such athletes and that many have turned themselves into fine endurance athletes using HR's below that ten beat zone below MAF. Like any form of training, you have to find your optimum training load with using HR's that low. There's a certain amount of volume you will have to hit before you see a steady improvement.

                     

                    --Jimmy

                     

                     

                    maybe you misunderstood my post. quoting you, "mostly" is not what I said. I said exclusively using too low HR's is what can be a problem.

                    exclusive means, you never even go close to MAF.

                     

                    but ok let's assume that you are right and simply a very high amount of this exclusive very low HR training is needed, such as 12+ hours a week. I have not tried to go that far because joints would have complained.

                     

                    so, for certain people, this is not a feasible training regimen.

                     

                    also, maybe not everyone wants to spend more than 12 hours per week on this. why not just use MAF for a few runs, why go much lower than that for all the runs?


                    Don't overstride!

                      Thanks cmon/jimmyb! Smile

                       

                      In trying to build up to 10 hour weeks and BQ, I am currently thinking to allocate time in the following:

                       

                      8 hours MAF-10

                      1 Hour MAF Test.

                      1 Hour MAF+15 (only to get used to race pace a few weeks before the tapper.)

                       

                      Does that seem right? I know if I run tens hours too close to MAF my body would break down.

                       

                      I need to better 3:30:59 for my BQ.

                        Thanks cmon/jimmyb! Smile

                         

                        In trying to build up to 10 hour weeks and BQ, I am currently thinking to allocate time in the following:

                         

                        8 hours MAF-10

                        1 Hour MAF Test.

                        1 Hour MAF+15 (only to get used to race pace a few weeks before the tapper.)

                         

                        Does that seem right? I know if I run tens hours too close to MAF my body would break down.

                         

                        I need to better 3:30:59 for my BQ.

                         

                         

                        you say you are trying to do MAF-10 because you can't do 10 hours at MAF.

                         

                        my question would be - why are you trying to do 10 hours per week?

                         

                        less can sometimes be more.

                         

                        another question that I thought of : how did you determine that your marathon race pace is at MAF+15? it may be so or may not be so.


                        Don't overstride!

                          C,

                           

                          I read an article on HADD training which the author that stated that the best possible HR for the marathon is around  Max HR-20. His method seems sound to me.

                           

                          My max HR is currently 180 so my MarHR should be around 160. If I can get close to 8:00.0 at 145 BMP for one hour then I should have a good chance at a BQ.

                            C,

                             

                            I read an article on HADD training which the author that stated that the best possible HR for the marathon is around  Max HR-20. His method seems sound to me.

                             

                            My max HR is currently 180 so my MarHR should be around 160. If I can get close to 8:00.0 at 145 BMP for one hour then I should have a good chance at a BQ.

                             

                             

                            as far as I understood, this best possible marathon HR according to Hadd means that you are running a 2: xx marathon, way inside 3 hours. apparently, the faster you get it done the higher the avg HR can be. for a 180max HR and 3:30 marathon MARCO calculator recommends an avg of 156, that I assume includes some HR drift over 26miles as it makes you start at 141 or so (though of course that is a slightly slower pace than the avg pace but not that much slower).

                             

                            oregon calculator recommends 155 avg HR for a 3:30 marathon.

                             

                            on the other hand, if you can do 8minute miles at 145 and you manage to run the 3:30 off that, then your marathon HR is again not 160 (it may drift to 160 after a long time of running  though)..

                             

                            of course I could be wrong but I think 160 is more likely too high than not.


                            Consistently Slow

                              C,

                               

                              I read an article on HADD training which the author that stated that the best possible HR for the marathon is around  Max HR-20. His method seems sound to me.

                               

                              My max HR is currently 180 so my MarHR should be around 160. If I can get close to 8:00.0 at 145 BMP for one hour then I should have a good chance at a BQ.

                              Oregon pace wizard:  Your HR needs to be 150. It projects my HR needs to be 142 which is 220-156=144(3:42: x x)

                              For  a HM TO had 148 HR/ 1:51:05-- I did 1:47:51  AHR 164 Oct 2010. 1:54:59 HR AHR160 Oct 2009. Same course.

                              4 heart beats faster 7 minutes faster.What do your Maff test look like?

                              9/09----1st mile 11:47--maff 125

                              10/10--1st mile 10:30--maff 125

                               

                              <center> For: Anonymous age 47, estimated VO2max 52.45, estimated HRmax 173

                               

                              </center><center>

                              Projected Race Performances

                              </center>

                              The following race performance predictions assume that you have adequate endurance training. This is a specific requirement for the longer distances. Your projected performances for standard running distances are:

                              <center>DISTANCE</center> <center>TIME</center> <center>PACE</center> <center>HR</center>
                              <center>2 mi</center> <center>0:13:00</center> <center>6:30</center> <center>173</center>
                              <center>5 km</center> <center>0:20:56</center> <center>6:44</center> <center>168</center>
                              <center>5 mi</center> <center>0:34:59</center> <center>6:59</center> <center>164</center>
                              <center>10 km</center> <center>0:44:15</center> <center>7:07</center> <center>162</center>
                              <center>15 km</center> <center>1:08:33</center> <center>7:21</center> <center>158</center>
                              <center>10 mi</center> <center>1:13:57</center> <center>7:23</center> <center>158</center>
                              <center>20 km</center> <center>1:33:31</center> <center>7:31</center> <center>156</center>
                              <center>HalfMthn</center> <center>1:39:04</center> <center>7:33</center> <center>155</center>
                              <center>25 km</center> <center>1:59:00</center> <center>7:39</center> <center>154</center>
                              <center>30 km</center> <center>2:24:53</center> <center>7:46</center> <center>152</center>
                              <center>Marathon</center> <center>3:29:24</center> <center>7:59</center> <center>150</center>

                              Run until the trail runs out.

                              2013***1500 miles

                              50 miler

                              Race Less Train More

                               

                              Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                              "The Marble in The Groove"

                               

                              unsolicited chatter

                              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


                              Consistently Slow

                                MAFF PREDICTION CHART

                                 

                                MAF....5k pace....5k time.....Marathon.....Mpace

                                13:00...9:00.........27:57..........4:32:29.......10:25
                                12:30...8:45.........27:11..........4:25:00.......10:07
                                12:00...8:30.........26:23..........4:17:12.........9:50
                                11:30...8:15.........25:37..........4:09:44.........9:32
                                11:00...8:00.........24:51..........4:02:15.........9:15
                                10:30..7:45..........24:04..........3:54:37.........8:58

                                10:00..7:30..........23:18..........3:47:09...........8:41
                                9:30....7:15..........22:31..........3:39:31...........8:23
                                9:00....7:00..........21:45..........3:32:02...........8:06
                                8:30....6:45..........20:58..........3:24:24...........7:49
                                8:00....6:30..........20:12..........3:16:55...........7:31
                                7:30....6:00..........18:38..........3:01:39...........6:56
                                7:00....5:30..........17:05..........2:46:32...........6:22
                                6:30....5:15..........16:19..........2:39:04...........6:05
                                6:00....5:00..........15:32..........2:31:26...........5:47
                                5:45....4:45..........14:45..........2:23:48...........5:30
                                5:30....4:30..........13:59..........2:16:19...........5:12
                                5:15....4:20..........13:28..........2:11:17...........5:01
                                5:00....4:15..........13:12....... ..2:08:41...........4:55

                                Posted by bkclay at <abbr>4:18 PM</abbr> 0 comments

                                 

                                You need to be well rested before testing. Jan 2011 I ran 3:57 for the marathon.Maff chart had me at 4:12. I had run 2- 50k's and a marathon in 3 months before doing the test. My last test predicts 3:54. I have a night marathon July 16. I may go for the 8:58 pace. BQ marathon Sept 18.

                                Run until the trail runs out.

                                2013***1500 miles

                                50 miler

                                Race Less Train More

                                 

                                Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                                "The Marble in The Groove"

                                 

                                unsolicited chatter

                                http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                                123