Low HR Training

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Distance v. Time (Read 774 times)

    I'm still very new to the whole LHR thing and I have two questions for the Brain Trust here:


    First, my long run tomorrow is going to be 11 miles.  That will take me nearly 3 hours as a dutiful LHR convert.  Granted where I run (well walk mostly) is gorgeous and spiritually fulfilling, with an always cool sunrise, a pair of bald eagles, red tailed hawks, great blue herons, foxes on occasion, coyotes, a river, views of the mountains, etc. so I LOVE being out there, BUT should I run time-wise (as in less than my 3 or so hours) or stick to my distance schedule since i am a very important person with a very important schedule to follow... or just relax about the whole thing and not be concerned with either until my aerobic capacity improves which, from what I understand, may take a few years?  


    As a very important person with a very important schedule to follow the relaxed approach is not my first choice.  I have a race in 7 weeks after all, up a 14,000' peak, starting above 10,000' for 14.5 miles and although I've been dead last in a marathon (ok, or two) a few years ago I really would not mind being second or third to last instead in this upcoming "fun run."


    Second, what about exceeding my heart rate in other activities during my LHR training-does that matter?  I'm thinking specifically of hot yoga --sometimes my heart pounds in Vinyasa--or the occasional short sprint after an exuberant dog who is enjoying a fine breakfast of goose poop or rolling in a dead bunny, etc.


    Thanks for the feedback and TGIF.

    Runner and writer with a pesky day job. http://memoirsandhalftruths.wordpress.com/ "Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." -- H. T.Whitman

      as for time vs distance. I do both. I try to have enough mileage but I'm paying attention to time too. of course as long as your pace isn't changing drastically, you can pay attention to just one of them because it will largely mean the same result.

      now about what is too much; if you've done 3 hour training runs before then this one should be okay. though, I found that initially it's much harder to do the training for the same time when keeping the HR under MAF. (and distance will be a lot less too.) so perhaps cut back a bit on time first. this improved for me after 2-3 weeks, now the same training time is not a problem, my runs are similar length in time than before MAF, the only difference is I now train 6 days a week, not 4-5 so overall weekly time is more but with intensity being less that's OK.

      also pay attention to what your body's telling.

       

      I do occasional sprints after the bus (funnily enough, I feel like doing that stuff more since I'm MAF'ing and it feels good too) but I don't think it matters, your HR is very high only for a few secs and it will go back to normal very quickly as well.

      so I think maffetone just meant that any sustained/training activity should stay under MAF HR. I sure hope so, because my HR can go above MAF just from seeing a dog alone that may be dangerous. I'm not joking, I had my HRM on when I met such a dog. I was standing still and my HR went from 100 to 159 while my MAF is 153. (I had the HRM on because I was walking to a training course.)

      btw, I'm taking that seriously except for the bus sprints; I even walk up the stairs to 4th floor using an aerobic pace (I can set that pace even without a HRM). and it feels very good, not like before. Smile

       

      PS: I read some posts on your blog (ones about running, etc.), I like it.


      Petco Run/Walk/Wag 5k

        For the most part I go by time and let the distance fall where it may. I injured myself trying to meet distance schedules before body was ready to handle it. So for me time on feet is the big measure. for instance, I anticipated taking 3hrs to finish first half,so goal was to extend long runs to 3hrs,even tho it was short the mileage, I knew I could be on  my feet for the three hours. It worked for me and I finished that first half last Nov in 2:59"46!

         

        Of course some mileage is involved even when running by time. I kind of know what routes around my house take how long to run so I don't find my self a few mi from home with no "schedule" time left.

         

        will have to find time to read your blog

        bob e v
        2014 goals: keep on running! Is there anything more than that?

        Complete the last 3 races in the Austin Distance Challenge, Rogue 30k, 3M Half, Austin Full

        Break the 1000 mi barrier!

        History: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008 on 62nd birthday.

        jimmyb


          Hi TC,

           

          The scoop on time vs. distance is that your body only knows duration. For example, an elite athlete can do a 20-mile MAF long run in 6:00 or better pace--that only takes 2 hours. Two hours and the training effect is done. Why should an amateur, with average genetic talent, or worse, go out and run 4 hours? As far as your body is concerned, you've worked out twice as long. You've taken twice as many footfalls.

           

          Jack Daniels, Dr. Phil both tout running by time and not distance. They warn against setting a mileage based schedule as it is the most arbitrary way of training. You are forcing your body into a training load that might be overkill, and ultimately result in over-training and injury. Jack Daniels believes that 2-2:30 hours as a long run is enough. There is some research that shows there is no aerobic benefit after this amount of time. Run any longer and you are just pounding your body.

           

          Dr. Phil Maffetone doesn't really go into how long your long runs should be. Instead, he suggests using the MAF test to monitor your training load and its effect on your aerobic system. If your pace at MAF heart rate is getting faster, then good. If it is stagnatinng or going backwards, not good. Besides the test, you can also use any kind of run below MAF. For example, if you do a 90 minute run every week and let your HR stay in a 5 beat zone of below MAF, then that should be improving as well. You can tell from recovery runs as well. Everything at MAF and below should be getting better.

           

          The idea is to start out with a low to moderate training load or amount of time, then increase a little every week or three, watching your MAF tests and paces. Keeping tabs on your health as well. If you are starting to develop sore spots, feeling over-tired, your sleep patterns are being disrupted, getting nasty with your mate, resting heart rate is sky-high, etc. then one or more of those may be a sign you are over-training.

           

          A four hour workout might not be detrimental, if your body can indeed handle it. If a runner takes her time, allows the body time to adapt to each workout, with rest and recovery runs, then there is no telling what the training load could eventually be. Carefully monitoring of the MAF test, all training paces, race paces, and  anaerobic threshold pace, will let you know when to back off, or even to add more. Keeping track of as much information as possible is key.

           

          The time vs. duration argument is very interesting when applied to races. The female winner of the NYC marathon finishes in about 2:20, and last place might be 6:30. They are not running the same race in terms of body time. The mental and physical toll on the 6:30 runner is much greater. Imagine a world where all races are time events. A marathon would last only as long as it took someone to cross the finish line. Instead of 5k's, there would be 16 minute races. Whatever distance you cover in that time, that's your place. They do have 6-day races that use the same philosophy.

           

           

          --Jimmy

           

          Log    PRs

            Thanks everyone, lots of good information.  I have been out for 1.75 to 2.25 hours or so the last 3 Saturdays for my long runs.  So I've done an 8-miler, and two 9-milers in 3 weeks.  Last weekend after the run I took a, um, 4-hour nap in the afternoon which I know is a sign of overdoing it idiocy.  But I was also totally fried from 15 days of working and no days off (I know, cry me a river in a recession-I am frankly lucky to have so much work) and inadequate sleep, which at 47, appears to completely wreck me. 

             

            I guess what I will do is see how I feel in the morning and take it from there.  My resting pulse is getting lower.  Sitting here at the computer it's 62.  About 4 weeks ago it was 66 waking up so that is a good sign.  But I will watch the overdoing it because I am famous (in my own mind) for doing that.

             

            I really like the notion that after 2.5 hours aerobic capacity is basically maxed.  So my 6-hour long run 3 or 4 weeks before the marathon might be a 3.5 hour waste of time?  Interesting.  My dog is kind of maxed out after that run last Saturday, that's for sure, and her nap was longer than 4 hours afterwards-ha!  I won't be running her like that once the weather gets hotter of course.

             

            I'm learning a ton here and appreciate all these posts and stickies.

             

            Here's how I usually do my running:

             

            Sat-long run a.m.

            Sun-rest (one hour or so walk though, sometimes on hills, includes stopping for an overpriced caffeinated beverage)

            Mon-run 3 to 5 miles

            Tues-walk-maybe 45 minutes

            Wed-3 to 5 miles

            Thurs & Fri-walk-maybe 45 minutes or so each day

             

            Runner and writer with a pesky day job. http://memoirsandhalftruths.wordpress.com/ "Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." -- H. T.Whitman
            jimmyb


              Thanks everyone, lots of good information.  I have been out for 1.75 to 2.25 hours or so the last 3 Saturdays for my long runs.  So I've done an 8-miler, and two 9-milers in 3 weeks.  Last weekend after the run I took a, um, 4-hour nap in the afternoon which I know is a sign of overdoing it idiocy.  But I was also totally fried from 15 days of working and no days off (I know, cry me a river in a recession-I am frankly lucky to have so much work) and inadequate sleep, which at 47, appears to completely wreck me. 

               

              I guess what I will do is see how I feel in the morning and take it from there.  My resting pulse is getting lower.  Sitting here at the computer it's 62.  About 4 weeks ago it was 66 waking up so that is a good sign.  But I will watch the overdoing it because I am famous (in my own mind) for doing that.

               

              I really like the notion that after 2.5 hours aerobic capacity is basically maxed.  So my 6-hour long run 3 or 4 weeks before the marathon might be a 3.5 hour waste of time?  Interesting. 

               

              Sat-long run a.m.

              Sun-rest (one hour or so walk though, sometimes on hills, includes stopping for an overpriced caffeinated beverage)

              Mon-run 3 to 5 miles

              Tues-walk-maybe 45 minutes

              Wed-3 to 5 miles

              Thurs & Fri-walk-maybe 45 minutes or so each day

               

               

               

              A 6 hour long run might be overdoing it, but then again, maybe not (there is a mental benefit as you know you can last 6 hours on your feet).You have too figure this out through experimentation with your training loads.
               This is where your MAF tests come into play. What you are looking for is progress in your tests. If your aerobic system is progressing well with one 2-2.5 hour long run every week or two, then there might not be a need to run any longer. Your MAF speed, or "aerobic speed" will indicate where your endurance is. Personally, once my aerobic speed for 5 miles is about 9:15, I know I can run a 3:30 marathon. After awhile you will learn your own indicators. For example, you might find that when your aerobic speed is 13:00 for 5 miles, you can run a 4:40 marathon.

               

              If after running 6 hours a few times, you suddenly see a plateau in your tests, or maybe a regression. Probably not good to do.

               

              What is needed for a marathon is aerobic system development. If an elite went out and ran 6 hours at MAF 3 weeks out from the race, she might cover 50-60 miles. Believe me, they are not going to do that run. They know there is no aerobic benefit past a certain point, and it would take a lot of time to recover. At some point in the workout, the body begins to break down, and cortisol and other stress hormones begin to go through the roof. Not good for the aerobic system. I can't say for sure, but maybe running 6 hour training runs before marathons keeps you at 6+ hours in the race, because you are over-trained and tired when you get there.

               

              Dr. Phil recommends adding easy  walking on the end of the run to fill the extra time. I'm not sure what his limitations would be, but in the case study in The Maffetone Method, he had a runner add 1 hour of easy walking on the end of the run to equal a total of 3:30--in order to get used to the time, not to gain any more aerobic benefit. Again, I'm not sure he would recommend 3:30 of extra walking for you.

               

              For sure, you want to get to the marathon rested.

               

              Experiment. Keep track of your MAF tests. Learn how your aerobic speed relates to race pace.

               

              --Jimmy

              Log    PRs

              Anne47


                This is a very interesting thread TallChick. Thanks for starting things off.

                 I made the decision to train using time rather than distance primarily because I was becoming too obsessed with my pace, slow as it was in the beginning. I  have my Garmin showing  only HR so that I'm not tempted to check my pace and I don't usually download from the Garmin anymore so that I don't have any opportunity to agonize over slow progress. I combine my MAF training with dog walking so for me that means two exercise sessions daily. I usually do MAF runs in the morning sandwiched between walking periods for a total of 1-1/2hrs. I try to extend the morning sessions at least twice a week; I think the longest I've gone is 2hr15-30 and that would be running for about an hour or so and then run/walking until I reach my goal time.  The afternoon dog walks are usually just brisk walks under MAF with occasional short runs to bring my HR up to MAF and then walking again. (This makes the afternoon walks a little more interesting for me but has the unfortunate effect of confusing my dogs). My total daily time on my feet is usually 2-4hrs and I do this every day. I would estimate that the daily mileage varies from 6 - 10 miles. So far I haven't noticed any problems with overtraining as I think I'm always aerobic. Nor have I noticed any symptoms of overtraining. I always finish feeling like I could keep going. Next week I am going to increase my MAF by +5 for being over 60yrs as suggested by jimmyb. It will be interesting to see whether I get more 'bang for my buck' in terms of time vs distance.

                I do have the luxury of much spare time, unlike you with your busy working schedule. I only work part-time and then on my own schedule. I am also not training with any serious racing goals in mind as you are. I am just throwing this out as part of this very interesting discussion.

                By the way, I had an opportunity to start reading your blog this morning - very nice work. I'm enjoying it.

                 

                  Anne47:

                   

                  as for obsessing over the pace, what helped me was the following... I compared myself to some women I know (well, I only know them virtually but it somehow helps that they are feeling more real to me than someone in a newspaper article) who have crazy good aerobic fitness. for example one of them can run 40 miles at a hardly slower than 8m/m pace no problem and then she goes out next day for her next workout as if nothing had happened so 40 miles or more at that fast pace is nothing out of the ordinary for her. or, she did 30-40 miles for 4 days in a row at 8m/m pace, took 2-3 days off and then went to do a fast half marathon at better than a 7m/m pace!

                  the other women are almost as good as her too. and none of them are pro's. they just do it beside work, life etc.

                  so... I did the comparison and then realized that there is no point in caring about my current pace. it is crap either way and more importantly, it is not an interesting pace at all.

                  so this taught me to be more humble than before. MAF makes your ego go away. Smile and then you are free to just enjoy it all.

                   

                  very very nice about the 2-4 hours on feet every day - I should try doing some walks myself to get there. right now it's 1 hour run on average, I'm quite cautious to avoid overdoing it. and yes, don't feel overtrained but just feeling that you could keep going doesn't mean it wasn't too intense. of course I'm sure if it is below MAF then it is never too intense. the more below MAF the more true that is. let us know about how the +5 helped! but if you do that, perhaps you should monitor signs of overtraining more carefully... just in case.

                  Anne47


                    Cmon2, I think you've hit exactly on what I hope MAF training will eventually mean to me. My pace should be of no consequence except to me and how it makes me feel. In my situation I am looking to feel healthier and stronger and to be able to say that I am a runner. MAF has done that for me but not without considerable whining and moaning along the way. The accomplishments of the women runners you mentioned are so far beyond my reach that I wouldn't even consider them as exemplars but I certainly do admire their achievements. You are so right in reiterating the humbling aspects of MAF training. I had never considered myself to be a particularly egotistical person but MAF has shown me a different aspect of myself.

                    I am pretty careful in judging whether I am overtraining. I go by keeping to my MAF pace and my resting HR which is always betwen 40 and 44 in the morning. I have assumed that that is an adequate way of monitoring for overtraining.

                    Thanks for your input. It has helped to clarify some things for me.


                    Consistently Slow

                       In my situation I am looking to feel healthier and stronger and to be able to say that I am a runner. MAF has done that for me but not without considerable whining and moaning along the way.

                      .

                       My race times have slowed since I started LHR  training. My monthly mileage has increased. It is just a matter of what is important to you.

                      6/27/2009 Run   Race 2.86 Mi 22:07 7:45
                      6/13/2009 Run

                      salute to freedon MACON

                      Race 3.1 Mi 24:33 7:56
                      6/14/2008 Run

                      Random Route

                      Race 3.1 Mi 22:52 7:23

                       

                      Run until the trail runs out.

                      2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                      50miler 13:26:18

                      Race Less Train More

                       Pistol 100 ----01/03/15

                      Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                      "The Marble in The Groove"

                       

                      unsolicited chatter

                      http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


                      Consistently Slow

                        monthly miles have increased. I am happy with the increase mileage. Speed will eventually come back.

                        Mar 2010       134.5 Mi 30:34:39 13:39
                        Feb 2010       87.1 Mi 21:56:20 15:07
                        Jan 2010       145.5 Mi 33:28:28 13:49
                        Dec 2009       126.5 Mi 31:57:52 15:10
                        Nov 2009       140.3 Mi 33:41:19 14:25
                        Oct 2009       136.0 Mi 30:26:42 13:26
                        Sep 2009       126.2 Mi 27:56:26 13:17
                        Aug 2009       125.2 Mi 29:45:43 14:16
                        Jul 2009       113.3 Mi 27:12:10 14:25
                        Jun 2009       100.6 Mi 25:41:07 15:20
                        May 2009       97.9 Mi 26:04:50 15:59
                        Apr 2009       44.6 Mi 13:09:00 17:43
                        Mar 2009       47.7 Mi 14:16:53 17:57
                        Feb 2009       15.4 Mi 3:53:06 15:07
                        Jan 2009       53.1 Mi

                        Run until the trail runs out.

                        2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                        50miler 13:26:18

                        Race Less Train More

                         Pistol 100 ----01/03/15

                        Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                        "The Marble in The Groove"

                         

                        unsolicited chatter

                        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                          Cmon2, I think you've hit exactly on what I hope MAF training will eventually mean to me. My pace should be of no consequence except to me and how it makes me feel. In my situation I am looking to feel healthier and stronger and to be able to say that I am a runner. MAF has done that for me but not without considerable whining and moaning along the way. The accomplishments of the women runners you mentioned are so far beyond my reach that I wouldn't even consider them as exemplars but I certainly do admire their achievements. You are so right in reiterating the humbling aspects of MAF training. I had never considered myself to be a particularly egotistical person but MAF has shown me a different aspect of myself.

                          I am pretty careful in judging whether I am overtraining. I go by keeping to my MAF pace and my resting HR which is always betwen 40 and 44 in the morning. I have assumed that that is an adequate way of monitoring for overtraining.

                          Thanks for your input. It has helped to clarify some things for me.

                           

                           

                          yeah, I did whine too for a while. but now I think I finally understand. so glad if I could help you Smile

                            So much good stuff here, thanks everyone.  I'm sore as hell today.  My HRM didn't work at all Sunday so I just stayed in walking mode but ending up hiking up on top of North Table Mountain, about 1000' of elevation gain, very uneven ground and once on top, no trail to speak of, just bent over savannah-type long grass where the snow recently melted and a rutted out 4-wheel drive road that was too uneven to walk on.  The outer edge is an 8.84 mile loop, which I didn't do completely.  I trotted a little, mostly walked and then ran downhill on a road which was kind of fun.  My calves are screaming today but I'm going barefoot around the office and doing gentle stretches.  I did the same last night. 

                             

                            This hike was on Sunday, about 10.3 miles and took about 3 hours.  It was blustery and cold enough for a long sleeved dry-wick t a vest and a windbreaker but I was really sweating on the way up, probably way over MHR.  I made the mistake of taking a game trail in my zeal and then had to do some 3-point scrambling on rock to get up on the top cliff band (yes there is a trail and no I wasn't on it because I'm an idiot).  I was also kind of irritated my HRM wasn't working (I've since replaced the battery in the strap which was totally juiceless).  Even after a good breakfast of soft boiled farm eggs and 1 piece of sprouted toast, I crashed bigtime low-blood sugar-wise (had a Hammer gel thing with slow-release sugar a few hours in but maybe I needed two?).  Weird.  Anyway I guess I overdid it since I'm sore but it was so beautiful up there--there is a surprising amount of spriing-fed creeks, lots of deer (saw 27 of them) and great views.   I need to figure out my fueling and blood sugar deal because I didn't do too well at it on Sunday and I still don't know why.

                             

                            I was so cranky in my walk home from the base of the mountain I knew something was up.  At home I had some almond butter with an apple and was a new woman, instant mood change, so I guess I'll carry some buffalo jerky with me next time--it's just that it looks and is shaped just like these dog treats I carry and I'm afraid to mix them up!

                             

                            OK, onward!

                            Runner and writer with a pesky day job. http://memoirsandhalftruths.wordpress.com/ "Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." -- H. T.Whitman


                            Consistently Slow

                              Tallchick-- sounds like a great adventure.

                              Run until the trail runs out.

                              2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                              50miler 13:26:18

                              Race Less Train More

                               Pistol 100 ----01/03/15

                              Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                              "The Marble in The Groove"

                               

                              unsolicited chatter

                              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                                My brother in law just yelled at me for going up there alone (but I had my fearless 25-lb dog)- because-his best friend was stalked by a mountain lion recently there.  I told him that's because his friend runs in a hat with a pom pom on the top and thus looks like a big cat toy...
                                Runner and writer with a pesky day job. http://memoirsandhalftruths.wordpress.com/ "Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." -- H. T.Whitman
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