Low HR Training

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Running every other day (Read 1481 times)

    My weekly duration these days is only about 3.5 hours per week (20 miles per week).  Sometimes it is 4 hours.  It almost feels embarrassing to admit that I run so little, when I see what some of you are able to run.


    I use the term "able" because, just like vo2 max, and other things, I think the ability to do a lot of miles is also somewhat geneticly determined.  I now have been at it for about four years, and earlier this year, I was very enthusiastic about increasing my miles to a new level.  Well, that did not happen.


    But, I am not really complaining.  Although I do lack the ability to run really really far and to be able to put in lots of miles, I feel like I am getting a lot out of the miles I do run.


    I recently made a huge change to my approach.  I decided to run every other day.  My reasoning is that any time I run two consecutive days, even if the first day is "easy", the next day feels like a wasted day.  I struggle.  Many times my HR is suppressed, meaning it is hard to get it to rise.  I have no bounce and no energy.  And then the next day (3rd day), I still feel the affects of the previous two days. 


    So, Instead of running 3 days in a row, I am now running the first day and then the third day.  I have been doing this for the past few weeks, and it has made a big difference to the quality of my runs.  I am much fresher for each run, and I am able to do more quality or quantity on those days.  The biggest problem with the every other day approach is the fact that there are 7 days in a week (an odd number).  It would have been much easier if a week had eight days. 


    The other problem is that sometimes, I look outside and see that it is a beautiful day out there, and I actually have the time, but it is my off day.  I have to force myself not to run that day.  One time, I gave in.  I felt really good that day, and thought I could do it.  I got out there and was very disappointed.  I felt good in my head, but not in my body.


    I know that the second day is supposed to be a recovery day, and you should be able to run easy enough so that you recover.  I think when I was younger, that would have worked.  I have read where a lot of older people have gone to this every other day method with a lot of success.  I totally understand why.


    But, some people, even when they are older, seem to be able to not have a problem with being able to pile up miles and to be able to run every day.  I am not that type of runner for sure.


    So, I am curious about others.  What works best for you?

     

    If I run only MAF pace or below, and limit the miles, I definitely could run every day and I think this is a good method for a base build up or just for general health reasons.  But, if you want to race, then the next phase requires some higher quality/quantity runs that are harder to recover from.


    On another note, I just have to tell you about my new running shoes!  Saucany Kinivara.  Earlier in the year, I bought some Nike Free 3.0s.  I really liked the heel to toe height differential (4 mm) and I loved the feel, and I loved the weight (very light) but not for very long distances.  Anything over 4 miles and my mid foot strike supporting muscles and tendons felt a bit beat up.  Especially on hard road surfaces.  So, I did a lot of on line research and found the Saucany kinvaras.  They are very light and also have a low heel to toe height differential (4 mm), but they had much more cushioning.  But, the cushioning was not squishy like the Nike Lunar Racers I once tried.  The cushioning felt solid.  I have used this shoe now for some long slower runs and some shorter faster runs.  It feels like a shoe you can use for racing or training.

     

    In the main forum, there has been a lot written about it: 

     http://www.runningahead.com/forums/topic/d0c96061414f41ee940bcb3ea61f634a

    Tennesotans


      For my marathon last January... I used the FIRST training program (run 3 days a week,

      cross train 2 days a week) and stayed healthy. I was doing intervals one day, tempo runs

      two days later and a long run on the weekend. My cross training was swimming.

      Other than my aerobic fitness sucked... it was pretty fun.

       

      When I switched to LHR training, I decided to try 5 days a week (again).  I lasted about

      3 months and got injured. I was up to 8 hours of running a week.

       

      So now I run every other day. Three days one week, four days the next. I cross train with swimming

      and biking.  Every sixth day is a rest day. I'm training for my second marathon and am doing a

      long run on either Sunday or Monday each week. The Monday run is about 2.5 hours, the

      Sunday is over 3 hours. So far I'm healthy (and still seeing MAF test improvement). I run about

      6 hours a week and cross train just under 2 hours.

       

      I don't know if I recommend my wacky plan to anyone... but yes, I'm in the "every other day" club Smile

        interesting.

         

         

        myself I'm not good at recovering muscle-wise if I compare myself to other runners. I may be young but 40 year old woman runner I know beats me in muscle recovery. she can run long at higher intensities more frequently and able to repeat that on several subsequent days. not me. maybe because she's run more years than me I dunno. (she's not faster than me so that's not it.) anyway, I can sympathize with you.

         

         

        let me explain that a bit further. I do recover very fast from exhausting runs in terms of energy, joints, everything, but muscles just won't recover fast. this was a whole hell of a lot worse when I had iron deficiency. muscle recovery was then terrible. that's fixed now, and I'm back to normal. but I'm not the born ultrarunner type. I wish I were.

         

         

        anyway, even the way I am, I found that at MAF or whatever my MAF is I can run every day and even doubles are no issue. I just recover really fast from such runs. this is true even if I consider my MAF to be above 180-age. I can do this everyday running with a few doubles up to 180-age+10 HR or so. and I can go long, and recover like, immediately. I tried it up to 3 hours and I was just fine. 5 mins after stopping I did not feel anything in the legs or anything else. I held the HR at 162 in that run which was 180-age+9 for me. (but I decided not to do 3hour long runs after that, it was just a fun experiment.)
        mixing this MAF-whatever stuff with a lot of higher intensities is less good though. I'm okay but mileage has to be cut back then.

         

         

        sub-MAF is probably full recovery run, at least for me it is. that one, I can mix it with higher intensity runs without the issues you described. I found I was able to keep mileage high when mixing the sub-MAF with higher intensity stuff. also I end up with more energy after such runs. this is true at 180-age HR and perhaps even a couple beats higher. if I do such runs exclusively then after a few days of these runs I'll have so much energy I'm afraid I'll burst open if I don't go out and do some harder run.

         

         

        it also seems to be a factor how much time I spend in a run, if they're short I can do them more frequently even at higher intensity.

         

         

        I do not really care for the shoe stuff, my first running shoe turned out to be just the perfect model for me. I found another such good model since then which is a good thing because the first one is no longer in production. I just buy those two models (first one while I could buy it). I'm not up to experimenting now, maybe later.


        Consistently Slow



           Although I do lack the ability to run really really far and to be able to put in lots of miles, I feel like I am getting a lot out of the miles I do run.


            My reasoning is that any time I run two consecutive days, even if the first day is "easy", the next day feels like a wasted day.  I struggle.  Many times my HR is suppressed, meaning it is hard to get it to rise.  I have no bounce and no energy.  And then the next day (3rd day), I still feel the affects of the previous two days. 




            I have to force myself not to run that day.  One time, I gave in.  I felt really good that day, and thought I could do it.  I got out there and was very disappointed.  I felt good in my head, but not in my body.



           

           

          1 ) It takes will power to run long not ability. 40 miler 11:00:00.

           

          2) Your HR does not need to rise on the 2nd day. Run easy. Get in the miles / time on feet. Go sub maff if necessary.Get to maff is usually a challenge for me most days.

           

          3)If your goal is to get faster 20 miles a week will not get you there. Two plus years of maff training has gotten me back on the road without injures and headed towards 2000 miles this year.

           

          Cmon2

          sub-MAF is probably full recovery run, at least for me it is

           

          Forget the ego run sub maff more.

          Run until the trail runs out.

          2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

          50miler 13:26:18

          Race Less Train More

           

          Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

          "The Marble in The Groove"

           

          unsolicited chatter

          http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

             

            Cmon2

            sub-MAF is probably full recovery run, at least for me it is

             

            Forget the ego run sub maff more.

             

             

            sheesh. this observation has nothing to do with ego. I did not mean that the pace would be "too slow". I like the pace at that HR, I feel very good at it. but it does not change the fact that it is recovery intensity.


            Petco Run/Walk/Wag 5k

              Not sure my experience will help but here is what I have been experiencing. I think ya'll know I am older (65 in Oct) and slower than most due to prior physical and medical conditions. That said, once I discovered that running was a big help in controlling my blood pressure and cholesterol my goal was to find a way to run 6-7 days/wk. Traditional training approaches had resulted in typical injuries. I found that using Galloway run/walk didn't work because of still focusing on overall pace and distance. Even when I first discovered MAF running I was pace oriented and not time on feet and days per week focused. for the last 8-12 months (can't remember when I just chucked pace/mileage focus) my focus has been on mostly Sub-Maf with some near MAF running included once fully and truly warmed up. Other than my previously discussed calf issues which i attribute to not recognizing the impact of transition to minimal shoes combined with 100% hill running in new neighborhood I've been able to use sub-maf to run 6-7x/week. this month should turn out to be another one of my high months now that DD2 is getting better, I'm at 85mi, 26 hrs on feet. Might get a little more in but will be traveling Fri and might not get a run in.

               

              So , sub-maf has helped me achieve my goals - thats my story and I'm sticking to it! LOL

              bob e v
              2014 goals: keep on running! Is there anything more than that?

              Complete the last 3 races in the Austin Distance Challenge, Rogue 30k, 3M Half, Austin Full

              Break the 1000 mi barrier!

              History: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008 on 62nd birthday.

              Tennesotans


                @bobev:      :: high five ::   keep going!


                Consistently Slow

                  sheesh. this observation has nothing to do with ego. I did not mean that the pace would be "too slow". I like the pace at that HR, I feel very good at it. but it does not change the fact that it is recovery intensity.

                   Not your ego. Most of the time we can not get out of our own way. Myself included.

                   

                   

                  Bob-

                  So , sub-maf has helped me achieve my goals - thats my story and I'm sticking to it! LOL

                  + 1

                  Run until the trail runs out.

                  2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                  50miler 13:26:18

                  Race Less Train More

                   

                  Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                  "The Marble in The Groove"

                   

                  unsolicited chatter

                  http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                     Not your ego. Most of the time we can not get out of our own way. Myself included.

                     

                     

                     

                    okay no worries, I was just surprised at that comment. anyway as I said I don't mind "slow" pace that I get at MAF or sub-MAF or whatever. now maybe if I tried to run MAF-20, that would be bad because it would be so weird slow that I'm unused to. I did try it once just for the heck of it and I did feel very self conscious then. but probably just because I was not used to this extremely low intensity.

                      an interesting thing I wanted to note is that the runs at higher intensity that I can't tolerate so well (muscle recovery too slow) are continuous runs. I have no problem with interval running. in the past I had done intervals on subsequent days. no problem, I felt nothing after that. (first day LT intervals second day vo2max intervals and trust me they were done hard).

                      jimmyb


                        Run,

                         

                        Good post.  I know a runner in his sixties who is talented. His volume never goes over 30 mpw. He does hard intervals weekly, a medium long run (hard), and  a few other brief runs. He ended up being injured a lot. Didn't believe in working out at lower intensities like MAF and below. His marathon times never really matched his 5-10k speed. He had the ability to be sub 3:00, but never got close.

                         

                        I've read about a 70+ runner who runs just every other day, takes long walks on the days in between. The man used to have the marathon record for 70 before Ed Whitlock came along.

                         

                        Ed's an interesting case, as he runs 3 hours a day, but he runs at a low aerobic intensity. There is a good chance that if you strapped a HRM on him, he would be around his MAF when he does.

                         

                        If you're doing mostly above MAF including speed training AND racing, then some men your age might need to recover the day after a hard day. The aerobic endurance isn't at the same level like if you were (e.g.) able to bring your MAF tests from 10:30 to 8:30 with a hefty volume of MAF running. I think that the more pure aerobic speed you build, which means all the endurance fibers and system have built up, the more you can run, and you recover faster.

                         

                        It's great that you are experimenting and trying different things. Many things will work, until they don't. Cool

                         

                        Good luck with the new shoes!

                         

                        --Jimmy

                         

                        P.S. I didn't want to do a long post on my schedule. You already know!

                        Though I will be posting, sooner or later, on my training (or lack of) as of late and how

                        some big time stress came into play and affected my body.

                        Log    PRs

                          If you're doing mostly above MAF including speed training AND racing, then some men your age might need to recover the day after a hard day. The aerobic endurance isn't at the same level like if you were (e.g.) able to bring your MAF tests from 10:30 to 8:30 with a hefty volume of MAF running. I think that the more pure aerobic speed you build, which means all the endurance fibers and system have built up, the more you can run, and you recover faster.

                           

                          Last week I tried something different, yet again.  I have enjoyed the every other day schedule over the last few months, but my volume was just getting lower and lower.  It is hard to keep the volume up by running every other day.  I also felt like my potential to improve was topped out.

                           

                          I was reading some of the posts on the main forum, and was struck by some of the advice about how a lot of improvement comes from just running more miles.  Very simple.  I also recall that Runner Clay gave some simple advice.  Use the recovery days to just get some miles in, even if they are very slow.

                           

                          So, I did a lot of recovery running last week.  I am finding that if I do a quality workout, and then follow it by two consecutive recovery days, I am able to do another quality workout again after that.  I have been running some Quality workouts with HRs in the mid 130sand finishing in the high 130s or low 140s  (high 9s, low 10s pace) .  I have been running the recovery runs in the 120s (11s pace)

                           

                          Evern though the workouts in the 120s feel so much slower and so much less stressful, they are actually only about a minute to a minute and a half slower than my quality workout paces.   So, I will try this for a while and see how it goes.  I also wanted to do some races later in the fall and just feel like I need more of a base and more miles.

                           

                          After doing some reading about recovery runs, I have kind of concluded that recovery runs are not necesarily run to aid recovery.  It's main benefit just seems to be a way to get more miles in while the body is in recovery mode.  Eventually, just getting those miles in, will help with making recovery easier too.


                          Consistently Slow

                            Last week I tried something different, yet again.  I have enjoyed the every other day schedule over the last few months, but my volume was just getting lower and lower.  It is hard to keep the volume up by running every other day.  I also felt like my potential to improve was topped out.

                             

                            I was reading some of the posts on the main forum, and was struck by some of the advice about how a lot of improvement comes from just running more miles.  Very simple.  I also recall that Runner Clay gave some simple advice.  Use the recovery days to just get some miles in, even if they are very slow.

                             

                            So, I did a lot of recovery running last week.  I am finding that if I do a quality workout, and then follow it by two consecutive recovery days, I am able to do another quality workout again after that.  I have been running some Quality workouts with HRs in the mid 130sand finishing in the high 130s or low 140s  (high 9s, low 10s pace) .  I have been running the recovery runs in the 120s (11s pace)

                             

                            Evern though the workouts in the 120s feel so much slower and so much less stressful, they are actually only about a minute to a minute and a half slower than my quality workout paces.   So, I will try this for a while and see how it goes.  I also wanted to do some races later in the fall and just feel like I need more of a base and more miles.

                             

                            After doing some reading about recovery runs, I have kind of concluded that recovery runs are not necesarily run to aid recovery.  It's main benefit just seems to be a way to get more miles in while the body is in recovery mode.  Eventually, just getting those miles in, will help with making recovery easier too.

                            I think you got it! My recover runs are normally 3- 4 minutes slower. Maff -10. Jimmy gets the credit for me slowing down. Once you get over 100 miles a month your race times will stat to improve dramatically.

                            Run until the trail runs out.

                            2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                            50miler 13:26:18

                            Race Less Train More

                             

                            Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                            "The Marble in The Groove"

                             

                            unsolicited chatter

                            http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                              So, I did a lot of recovery running last week.  I am finding that if I do a quality workout, and then follow it by two consecutive recovery days, I am able to do another quality workout again after that.  I have been running some Quality workouts with HRs in the mid 130sand finishing in the high 130s or low 140s  (high 9s, low 10s pace) .  I have been running the recovery runs in the 120s (11s pace)

                               

                              Evern though the workouts in the 120s feel so much slower and so much less stressful, they are actually only about a minute to a minute and a half slower than my quality workout paces.   So, I will try this for a while and see how it goes.  I also wanted to do some races later in the fall and just feel like I need more of a base and more miles.

                               

                              After doing some reading about recovery runs, I have kind of concluded that recovery runs are not necesarily run to aid recovery.  It's main benefit just seems to be a way to get more miles in while the body is in recovery mode.  Eventually, just getting those miles in, will help with making recovery easier too.

                               

                               

                              this sounds pretty good to me Smile

                               

                               

                              I guess everyone has to find their recovery HR that allows to get in the easy miles without adding unnecessary stress. mine is anything below 155bpm or so. I don't really go below 150bpm, I've never felt the need to go below 150 even in high mileage weeks. (if I do feel I can only run at lower than 150bpm HR, then I'm physically sick anyway e.g. cold, so better not run. btw, it depends on the kind of cold, with most kinds of plain cold I can run at higher HR's like 170, and not get a problem)

                               

                               

                              another thing I'd add - I would think quality workouts are more like the tempo or interval or fartlek or hill workouts. for you I don't think high 130-low 140 of continuous running is a real quality workout. it sounds more like a moderately easy run. it can be pretty good to stimulate the aerobic system if you don't overdo it Smile

                                another thing I'd add - I would think quality workouts are more like the tempo or interval or fartlek or hill workouts. for you I don't think high 130-low 140 of continuous running is a real quality workout. it sounds more like a moderately easy run. it can be pretty good to stimulate the aerobic system if you don't overdo it Smile

                                 

                                 I agree that most people define "quality" workouts as those you mentioned (tempo, interval, etc.). 

                                 

                                The term "Easy" is usually used for the workout I referred to which is at about 75% of my max HR.  I hesitated to use the term "Easy" because I still find them harder to recover from.  But, I agree that they are terrific aerobic workouts.  While doing them, they feel easy enough, and they do feel invigorating.

                                 

                                I think I got tripped up by the term "Easy".  When something is called "Easy", I assumed that I should be able to do it every day.  I now know that I can't.

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