Low HR Training

Maff test (Read 2907 times)

mananingot


    Hi Guys,

     

    Just wanted to share my MAF improvement over a 6 week period. Sorry, the numbers are in metric, but the total is about 5 miles.

    I did the test in the same out and back bike path with a few hills, thus cannot compare the time for the same distance. Instead, I recorded my split on the same landmarks along the course to compare trents for each.

     

    In between tests, I ran, biked and walk starting from 19 hours progressing to 12 hours a week (recently). All training is all under 144 BPM.

    The first MAF test was done a week after recovering from diarrhea.

    The April 21 test is a rest week with 6 hour week.

     

     

     

    <colgroup> <col width="48" /> <col width="139" /> <col width="59" /> <col width="75" /> <col span="2" width="64" /></colgroup>
    No Description Distance Time
    1-Apr-13 21-Apr-13 4-May-13
    1 Victoria St Bridge 1.46 0:11:41 0:10:33 0:10:19
    2 Brunswick Rd Bridge 1.42 0:11:02 0:10:41 0:10:12
    3 halfway  1.15 0:09:08 0:08:40 0:08:15
    4 Brunswick Rd Bridge 1.15 0:09:09 0:08:36 0:08:17
    5 Victoria St Bridge 1.42 0:11:38 0:11:05 0:10:47
    6 start 1.46 0:11:46 0:11:14 0:11:07
      total Time 8.06 1:04:23 1:00:49 0:58:57
      MAF   0:07:59 0:07:33 0:07:19
            -26 -14
      I think I'll put my maff progression too here because of the thread title. Smile

      I never do a a run that's declared to be maff test before starting the run because that would stress me too much. but I have some runs that I can compare because it's done on known routes (all of them flat).

       

      so, here, note, MAF=153:

       

       

      3/1/10 first MAF run

      mile 1: 14:49 @150

      mile 2: 15:37 @150

      mile 3: 15:16 @151

      mile 4: 14:55 @150.5

      mile 5: 15:17 @151

      and so on..

      total avg pace: 15:10 @151 6.5 miles

      weather: 46 F, DP low

       

      (warmup: only a 0.5 mile brisk walk, later I increased this to double the time/distance though...)

       

       

      3/5/10

      mile 1: 13:03 @149.5

      mile 2: 13:26 @151

      mile 3: 13:52 @151.5

      mile 4: 14:13 @151

      mile 5: 14:16 @151.5

      total avg pace: 13:47 @151 5 miles

      weather: 32 F

       

      (warmup: 1 mile brisk walk up to MAF-13, 13-14mins)

       

       

      3/28/10

      mile 1: 12:32 @149

      mile 2: 13:09 @148.5

      mile 3: 13:08 @149

      mile 4: 12:51 @149

      total avg pace: 12:54 @149 4 miles

      weather: 55 F, DP low

       

      (the run ended here..)

      (warmup: 1 mile brisk walk, occasionally slow run, 13mins or so, gradually increasing HR to MAF-10 and always done that way)

       

       

      4/15/10

      mile 1~ pace: 13:52 @146

      mile 2~ pace: 13:08 @151.5

      mile 3~ pace: 13:04 @152.5

      total avg pace: 13:21 @150 3.84 miles

      weather: 46 F, DP low

       

      I don't consider this one a regression, because it was fluctuating between 12:50 and 13:50 a lot in this period.

      (different route from first 2 but I used it several times and this is very well representative of other runs. a loop was around 1.28miles, I'm showing the pace for each loop above)

      (warmup: around 1 mile slow run, what is sure it was 15mins)

       

       

      5/24/10

      mile 1.5~ 1% down pace: 11:26 @152
      mile 3~ 1% up pace: 13:39 @154
      mile 4.5~ 1% down pace: 12:03 @154
      mile 6~ 1% up pace: 14:32 @153

      total avg pace: 12:41 @152 4.66 miles

      weather: 57 F, DP low (but raining)

       

      (again different but again known route. a big loop done twice and in this loop, first part is 1% "downhill" and back 1% "uphill", so only the corresponding halves can be compared to each other or the whole loops to each other.)

      (warmup: usual slow run, around 0,8mile around 11 mins)

       

       

      6/15/10

      mile 1~ pace: 11:48 @151

      mile 2-3-4~ pace: 12:03 @153 (to turnpoint)

      mile 5-6-7~ pace: 12:03 @153 (back same way)

      mile 8~ pace: 12:40 @153

      mile 9~ pace: 12:32 @153 (end of run here, back at starting point)

      total avg pace for first 4-5~ miles: 11:58 @152.5 4.26 miles

      total avg pace for entire run: 12:06 @153 for 9.08 miles.

      weather: 75 F, but not humid

       

      (the route is different again.)

      (warmup: slow gradual run of 13mins, for over a mile)

       

      well why not update this :P

       

      I'll list some paces here over the years that belong to runs that happened to be around 153 HR = 180-age (ok I aged but no need to update it yet, though I could add 5 bpm due to improvements). I didn't have any such 153 HR run in a period or I didn't find them looking in my training log, only some with slightly higher HR's (155-160-ish) so the list is very sporadic before 2013 but this year I got into these very easy runs again. I added some estimates for the missing periods.

       

      (Nov 2010 estimated pace for 50-60-minute run at 153bpm: 11:20)

       

      2/16/2011
      avg pace: 10:39 @152 AHR, 5.68 miles

       

      (Oct 2011 estimated pace for 50-60-minute run at 153bpm: 10:20)

       

      (Aug 2012 estimated pace for 50-60-minute run at 153bpm: 10:00)

      3/27/2013
      avg pace: 9:44 @151 AHR, 6.55 miles

      5/14/2013
      avg pace: 9:27 @151 AHR, 5.68 miles

      6/11/2013
      avg pace: 9:11 @151 AHR, 4.72 miles

       

       

      also, if I go by 158bpm, a recent run was close-ish:

       

      6/22/2013 (NOTE: warm weather, 86F!)

      avg pace: 8:28 @159 AHR, 5.38 miles

       

       

      oh and as for mileage, it is interesting that I got most of these improvements on 30-35mpw. 4-5 days per week of running in most of 2011/2012, 5 days per week this year, trying to finally go past the 30-35mpw Smile (I tried 40-45 before but I went back to lower after a while, right now I'm trying again for longer time)

      labhiker


        MAF Test update.

         

        7/16/ 13 - 5:10 am - HS Track - 74F - very humid.  1 mile WU primarily below 114 bpm.  1st mile @ 10:10 @ 128 bmp (age-based MAF = 129 bmp).  Very please with result.  Ran for a total of 5 + miles followed by .25 mile CD.  Following WU, mile splits were 10:10 mm @ 129; 10:27 @ 129; 10:39 @ 128; 10:55 @ 130 bpm ave.  Noted cardiac drift, however I'm not too worried at this point due to HH conditions and this may be typical.

         

        prior test, 6/15/13 - HS Track - 72 F- 1 mile WU below 114.  1st mile @ 11:28 @ 129 bmp.

         

        Pleased with noted improvement this morning.  Wx was warmer and certainly more humid.  I was expecting this to hinder performance, however 1st mile pace improved by neary 1:18.  I'm both pleased and surprised.  The "patience phase" is paying off!

         

        Noted differences between 7/16 and 6/15:  Wx much warmer and more humid on 7/16 and lost 4 lbs. from 6/15.

         

        Now back to more base building.  Getting closer to my goal of sub 10 mile splits.

        labhiker

           

          well why not update this :P

           

           

          yay, new update! got a run in where I happened to run a few miles around 153bpm HR. 8:40 pace!! Cool

           

          this was done in 70F so I suppose that helped too! (62% humidity but still better than 86F lol.) maybe would be even better in 50F though. Cool

          labhiker


            wow - 8:40 pace that is fantastic.  WTY cmom!

            labhiker

            jimmyb


               

              yay, new update! got a run in where I happened to run a few miles around 153bpm HR. 8:40 pace!! Cool

               

              this was done in 70F so I suppose that helped too! (62% humidity but still better than 86F lol.) maybe would be even better in 50F though. Cool

               

              Nice progress, C. Cool

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                wow - 8:40 pace that is fantastic.  WTY cmom!

                 

                thanks to both of you! Smile ...and I didn't add 5 beats for training&progressing for years... if I add that, it'd be more like 8:20 Cool

                itake8ez


                  I have a hard time keeping my training at MAF which is 131.  I have my monitor beep when hr reaches 131 and walk til its down to 120 and I still end up with max of over 140 because of drift and I usually average 123. My pace is around 15 mpm and I walk about half the time.  Ive been trying to do MAF for  about 10 weeks with no noticeable improvement other than being able to increase the distance.  Im wondering if the average hr of 123 is not too low to expect improvement  and if i should go back to try averaging 131 even if my HR reads 150s.

                  jimmyb


                    I have a hard time keeping my training at MAF which is 131.  I have my monitor beep when hr reaches 131 and walk til its down to 120 and I still end up with max of over 140 because of drift and I usually average 123. My pace is around 15 mpm and I walk about half the time.  Ive been trying to do MAF for  about 10 weeks with no noticeable improvement other than being able to increase the distance.  Im wondering if the average hr of 123 is not too low to expect improvement  and if i should go back to try averaging 131 even if my HR reads 150s.

                     

                    what kind of volume are you doing?

                    what was your volume (total duration and miles per week) when you started?

                    what were the temperatures when you started?

                    what are they now or lately?

                     

                    have you been doing MAF tests under the same conditions? If so, can you share the results of each test with the temperatures and any other details?  Summer temps can sometimes mask improvement.

                     

                    What kind of condition did you come to MAF training in? (were you injured? Had you been experiencing regression?)

                     

                    Remember, you want to keep your HR at or below MAF during the base phase. You might find that walking at MAF will help your progress. If you can walk that fast. If you can walk at MAF, and it feels easy, then walking might not be a bad way to go, for the entire workout, until you can't walk fast enough to get your HR up to MAF.

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                    itake8ez


                       

                      what kind of volume are you doing?

                      what was your volume (total duration and miles per week) when you started?

                      what were the temperatures when you started?

                      what are they now or lately?

                       

                       

                      I'm doing between 30-40 miles per week with no other cross training.  Before I started MAF 6/5 I was doing a lot more stationary bike and elliptical and my volume was around 25 miles/week, with average pace of 9-10 mpm, avg HR 150-160's (max HR= 185, Resting HR=42).  My first MAF was avg hr 131 and max 139:

                      m1=12:21

                      m2=13:03

                      m3=12:59

                      m4=12:59

                      I haven't been able to replicate the same kind of HR/pace because of the Florida heat as my HR gets high very quickly so I end up averaging a much lower HR and pace to avoid being out of zone.  Should I try to average 131 even if my HR gets to 150 for a few seconds, or slow down and walk as soon as it hits 131, which is what I've been doing?  what kind of zones should I set my monitor at?  Currently I have it set b/w 120-131.  My frustration with this type of training is not being able to walk or jog at MAF as I constantly have to shift between the two.  I have also been battling sciatica and tightness in lower legs for the last few years, which was preventing me from doing longer distances.  But these pains don't bother me as much now that I'm doing low HR training.  Thanks for your feedback.

                      jimmyb


                         

                        I'm doing between 30-40 miles per week with no other cross training.  Before I started MAF 6/5 I was doing a lot more stationary bike and elliptical and my volume was around 25 miles/week, with average pace of 9-10 mpm, avg HR 150-160's (max HR= 185, Resting HR=42).  My first MAF was avg hr 131 and max 139:

                        m1=12:21

                        m2=13:03

                        m3=12:59

                        m4=12:59

                        I haven't been able to replicate the same kind of HR/pace because of the Florida heat as my HR gets high very quickly so I end up averaging a much lower HR and pace to avoid being out of zone.  Should I try to average 131 even if my HR gets to 150 for a few seconds, or slow down and walk as soon as it hits 131, which is what I've been doing?  what kind of zones should I set my monitor at?  Currently I have it set b/w 120-131.  My frustration with this type of training is not being able to walk or jog at MAF as I constantly have to shift between the two.  I have also been battling sciatica and tightness in lower legs for the last few years, which was preventing me from doing longer distances.  But these pains don't bother me as much now that I'm doing low HR training.  Thanks for your feedback.

                         

                        The heat and humidity plays a huge part in what pace you're running at any HR.  I live in Atlanta, after a lifetime in New England, and  can attest to the effects of heat on pace. I've found I actually do better on a lower volume in the summer when running in 80+degrees. Part of that is I do a lot of yard work in the summer, which adds to the load. Dr. Phil had written about how some of his athletes' aerobic speed would plateau in the summer, and if they cut back a little, it would start to improve again. It always depends on the individual.

                         

                        Now, you have a some nagging stuff going on in your body that needs to heal up. And you're looking to get back on the progression track. It is a big success you got your mileage up to 30-40 miles per week. Walk/run/walk/run is frustrating you. I've been there. So, I understand the frustration. Here's a few suggestions, take them or leave them:

                         

                        --If you're not doing it already, make sure you're warming up for 15-20 minutes. Use that time to gradually get your HR up from resting to your target HR. Then do a cool down easy walk of at least 10-15 minutes after the run.

                         

                        --there are a few ways to structure an MAF run. You can run in a tiny zone around MAF, e.g.  129-132. Or you can start lower, then hold a certain pace until it reaches MAF. e.g. warm-up to 120, then hold the pace you're running when at 120, getting to 131 by the end of the run.

                        It might look like this:

                         

                        mile 1 100-115 bpm

                        mile 2 115-120 bpm

                        mile 3 120-123 bpm

                        mile 4 123-126 bpm

                        mile 5 126-129 bpm

                        mile 6 129-132 bpm

                         

                        Some people that have come through the board avoid the MAF all together. They'll use a ceiling of MAF-5 or -10. They did well with this. They worked deeper into their fat-burning, it was easier on them, and they could run for a very long time.

                         

                        --don't think average HR. Think ceiling. If you're MAF is 131, then you should only be seeing 132 some of the time, and avoiding 133 or higher. Even a small rise will get your HR up. You'll get better at knowing when to slow down, especially if you run the same course. Your HR will always seem to go up at certain points in the run. Little rises can do it.  Long gradual inclines, and of course, hills (if you even have one there in Florida). Do your best to avoid going over MAF in the base phase. You're in a base phase. SInce you're body has issues, you might consider taking the -5 adjustment and working at 126 and below. You might find that it gets you progressing better than the 131. Issues in the lower back area can indicate a body that's in a sugar-burning state at rest. According to Dr. Phil's Complimentary Sports Medicine book, some people's aerobic system and respiratory quotient are in such a sorry state that they're burning nearly 100% sugar at rest. The often have lower back issues. Your MAF might actually be a 126, if you were measured for it with an RQ test. That's why he has those adjustments. If you come to the program with issues, you should be taking a -5 adjustment. It's there because he found that athletes with issues and regression had lower MAF heart rates when tested. Athletes who felt great and were progressing often had higher MAF heart rates. Thus, the +5 adjustment. It's up to you.

                         

                        --In the past year, I did an experiment of just walking at MAF-10, with running only 1-2 miles per week as an MAF test. Not only did my walking speed improve (MAF-10), by my running speed at MAF also did.  I used MAF-10 for walking, because it felt real uncomfortable to walk at MAF.  I tell you this because it's a possibility for you at this point to do this. And also to show that the walking isn't hurting your aerobic progress. Perhaps, spend a little more time walking in the portions of the run where you feel you have to walk. Keeping your HR at 121 or higher. Making sure you don't walk too slowly. You could try walking at MAF, as I said. Especially, if it's not too uncomfortable. If it's not uncomfortable walking at MAF, then you have a lot of improving to do in terms of your aerobic system.

                         

                        --Are you stretching your calves? If so, try not stretching them. Stretching muscles will hurt just as many runners as it helps. The only time I've ever had problems with calves is when I stretched them, even after warming up. I do yoga, but only after I've warmed up at least a half hour walking or running. I avoid moves that stretch calves and the back of my legs. Most of the moves I do strengthen and improve movement in the core. I try to strengthen quads and the back of the legs with a few moves that I do. Currently, I have no issues (knock on wood, a nod to the running deities, especially the ones that dole out injuries for not giving them a nod). I do have gravity induced sagging, but that's the price of surviving from year to year on planet earth.

                         

                        —try a two-day block of recovery in the summer. Take the weekend off. Just do easy walking while go shopping or walk to the fridge and back. Recover. I figure you're about 49-50 with an MAF of 131. You need more recovery time. Especially at the level of fitness that you're at.

                         

                        The main message here is to experiment with taking some more of the stress out of your training right now and see if that works. Walk more, use a lower MAF, take more rest and avoid those high spikes. You should be feeling better than you do. Regression in the summer should be up front when the high temps and/or humidity come in. If you do the proper training load, you should see progression after awhile relative to that initial regression. All  I'm writing down here are just suggestions. Keep experimenting until you see what works for you. The MAF test is the key. Once you hit the proper training load (total stress on the body + rest), it should start moving in the right direction.

                         

                        Read this post:

                        http://www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR/Forum/9a615482208f4258be313f41a3c17d6c

                         

                        It discusses a case study that Dr. Phil put in one of his books. It shows that walking isn't a bad thing at all.

                         

                        Feel free to ask more questions and discuss your training!

                         

                        -JimmyCool

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                        itake8ez


                          Jimmyb - thanks for your feedback.  I think I will set my HR monitor max at 126 and try to walk more.  I'll let you know if I have any progress.

                            I have a hard time keeping my training at MAF which is 131.  I have my monitor beep when hr reaches 131 and walk til its down to 120 and I still end up with max of over 140 because of drift and I usually average 123. My pace is around 15 mpm and I walk about half the time.  Ive been trying to do MAF for  about 10 weeks with no noticeable improvement other than being able to increase the distance.  Im wondering if the average hr of 123 is not too low to expect improvement  and if i should go back to try averaging 131 even if my HR reads 150s.

                             

                            10 weeks without improving means something is likely off... unless it's just summer heat Smile see if by start of september (or whenever it gets cooler for your location) it doesn't improve...

                             

                            MAF at 131... are you 49 then? or 44 and did you already take the minus 5bpm?

                             

                            did you ever run any races and if so what average HR and what race times did you get?

                             

                            what causes the drifts to 140? do you just check the number on the HRM too irregularly?

                             

                            jimmyb - as always - had some nice suggestions but let me add that maybe the solution is not decreasing but increasing the ceiling HR target. the MAF formula is an approximation but you have to figure it out for yourself if it's correct or if you need to subtract or add a few beats.

                             

                            I believe the right HR range also depends on your training load... speaking of training load, you doing 30-40mpw at this slow pace sounds like a terrible lot of time per week. I would suggest decreasing the training time. what was your original training time per week at the 9-10mpm paces before starting MAF training?

                               

                              Think ceiling. If you're MAF is 131, then you should only be seeing 132 some of the time, and avoiding 133 or higher.

                               

                              oh hehe if that works for you great... Smile

                               

                              my HR will never be as steady as that... the lower the HR is the more variable it gets. (maybe it's to do with HRV Smile ) I'm sure I'm not alone with that...

                               

                              so, I believe that it isn't a problem if it goes up a few beats for a few seconds. definitely not worth stressing over it. I find this important to note. why add stress by trying to stick to a number so rigidly?

                              jimmyb


                                 

                                oh hehe if that works for you great... Smile

                                 

                                my HR will never be as steady as that... the lower the HR is the more variable it gets. (maybe it's to do with HRV Smile ) I'm sure I'm not alone with that...

                                 

                                so, I believe that it isn't a problem if it goes up a few beats for a few seconds. definitely not worth stressing over it. I find this important to note. why add stress by trying to stick to a number so rigidly?

                                 

                                If you come to the Maffetone Method injured, having regresses, and maybe overtrained, Dr. Phil says it's important that you keep a ceiling. In interviews he's talked about how important it is, as he would see regression or no improvement in people who were letting the heart rate go over too often. It's not a problem so much if you're in good shape and healthy.  He also suggests not adding stress. He's really big about not getting stressed out if you can help it.  If it does stress you out trying to keep at MAF, use a lower HR. Only get to the ceiling near the end of your run. Or don't go near it at all.

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