Low HR Training

1

Avg Pace at MAF (Read 796 times)

    Okay, I'm starting to work out at MAF and think I'm going to be getting in 25 - 30 mpw running and 6 mpw on the elliptical for the rest of the summer.  That rounds out to between 6 or 7 hours a week.  3 days a week I'm putting in a little over an hour, 2 days around half an hour and 1 day between 90 minutes and 2 hours.

     

    When I first started doing my HR training back in January I saw some good improvements going from over 11:00 pace to close to a 10:00 pace at a higher HR than MAF (I was doing 70% of my HRR) but for sure saw some real improvements in just a few months when running at the same HR.  (149 is what I was running at, my MAF is 136)

     

    Now that I'm slowing down to MAF my pace is back up over 11:00 depending on the conditions and temperature that day, but again I'm hoping to bring that down over the next several months.

     

    Doing some guesswork and extrapolation and I'm probably way off base, but I'm thinking if I can get my MAF pace down to 8:30 or 9:00 I could have a shot at running a 7:30 pace for a 10K.  I'm hoping that at my current training schedule I can knock around 45 seconds to 1 minute off my avg pace in ideal conditions at MAF over the next 4 months, but that might be overly optimistic.

     

    A long lead in to ask what some of you are seeing as far as your paces at MAF.  It seems that most are in the 10:00+ range.  I would hope to be around the 10:00 range within the next year for sure and hopefully keep dropping down into the 9:00's and maybe 8:00's.

     

    I'm sure there are folks who have MAF paces in the 8:00's and even 7:00's and maybe down lower than that.  Just curious how many of those folks are training at MAF on a consistent basis.

     

    Would love to hear from some folks who are that fast right now or have been that fast in the past.

     

    Thanks, Nathan

    Age: 46 Weight: 205 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27


    Hawt and sexy

      I actually do have a 10k time for a treadmill MAF pace at 9mm. Lemme go back through my log and give you an idea. The 10k was my first speedwork for a marathon that year.

      I'm touching your pants.


      Hawt and sexy

        Ok, I had a 47:12 on what was a hot day in my log, which means over 75 degrees F. The course was also super hilly in the last half. So that was a 7:36 mm on a hot and hilly course. So, if you get a flat course and  nice day... Oh, and the hawt outfit totally helps. I gotta have a cute skirt and matching bra top. I was third chick that day.

        I'm touching your pants.

          Thanks!

           

          I do realize that everyone is different and all that jazz.  Also like you mentioned the course and the weather have a LOT to do with your final time on a race as well, but that does fit in with what I was thinking.

           

          I'm sure some targeted speedwork would probably help a little bit to get to that last 7:30 pace as well.  I'm also going to start doing some more work on my form, I've bought a couple pair of minimalist shoes and might start doing some bleacher work if I that will fit into my MAF stuff.  Also some very short skipping excercises are in the back of my head somewhere.  But all that can what for a few months.

           

          Right now I just need to keep working on getting my pace at MAF down. 

          Age: 46 Weight: 205 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

          kfmfe04


            I think it will all depend on how badly you want to hit your targets and how much your body will take.

             

            From MAF to race, you will probably have 20 bpm or more over MAF to increase your pace as you see fit.  Not only that, at the 10k distance, you don't need to worry about bonking, so it just comes down to building a large enough base and doing the proper sharpening.

             

            If you want to increase your pace at MAF, I have found that increasing the length and frequency of training runs works.  When I started training (strictly MAF=138), I had a pace of around 15mpm at 10k.  After 33 continuous days of training, I have knocked that 15mpm down to 12-12:30mpm - I expect the next 2-2:30 mpm to be tougher, but as 10mpm is still quite slow, I don't think it will be too hard to get there MAFing.  For now, I want to build as large of an aerobic base as I can.  Pace improvements are secondary and will come for free, for a while...

             

            I will only concern myself with pace and changing my base building if and only if I plateau at MAFing.

             

            In the beginning, I was doing mostly 5k's, with periodic 10k's, but now, I'm doing daily 10k shodded + 5k barefoot (taking two hours) as my basic run.  On weekends, I will do longer runs.  I'm now up to 60mpw (12hr+ per week), with good daily recovery.  But do note that I am also doing special stretching and yoga to counter my runs (which also help me recovery more quickly).

             

            The longer runs are based on what I've read on the CR forums, and on an article that I can't find now which says the sweet spot for low-HR base-building and fat-burning is around 80 minutes (or longer) of continuous running.  There are also good articles long singles vs doubles: the general consensus for base building is, favor singles until you can put in serious mpw. 

             

            I'm beginning to feel that the single greatest thing about MAFing is, it allows me to ramp up on big volume quickly without getting injured, which also happens to be conducive to losing weight and improving my pace.

             

            Losing about 1-1.5lb/wk has also helped me increase my pace.  If the weight in your signature is up-to-date, losing weight will probably help you, too.

             

            If I were you, I would focus on MAFing my way down to 9mpm and below by building a large aerobic base while losing some weight at the same time.  Focus on that last 1-2mpm later, in a sharpening stage.  I think the expectations in your OP are perfectly reasonable - just focus more on volume (and staying healthy/uninjured) and less on pace, for now.

             

            You can look at my training log for ideas.

            Good luck.

             

            - Ken

            Age:42, MAF:138, 168cm/5'6", 62.2kg/137lb (from 73kg/161lb), BF: 14.9%

            Goals:  MAF10k@56:50, 59kg/130lb (32 days to go)

            Stage: Trying to get back to MAF Base Building after muscle strain injury

            My Training Log

             

              I actually have almost 40 bpm to use over my MAF for racing.  Especially in a 10K I feel that I could average 176 HR without a problem.  I ran the last 6 miles of my last race (an 11 miler) at over 180 average HR.

               

              I am looking to shed another 15 pounds or so.  I started last May around 240 and have that knocked down a little under 220 now.  205 is my goal weight.  I think some things I've read make it sound like you can shave a few seconds off your race pace just from shedding pounds.  I think I read somewhere 2 seconds for every pound lost so losing another 15 pounds might get me 30 seconds by itself.  No idea if that is accurate, but it does make sense that losing pounds should help some.

               

              I would love to be putting in more volume, but it just isn't going to happen right now.  As I get faster hopefully I'll be able to add more miles, but right now that 6 to 7 hours a week is all I'm going to get to spend while trying to keep everything else balanced.  I realize my improvement isn't going to happen as fast at that level, but hopefully it will still happen.  I might be able to stretch my runs up to 80 or 90 minutes during the week instead of 70 minutes right now.  Just take getting up earlier.  I might just rock along on my current schedule for a month and see whether I'm making much improvement or not.

              Age: 46 Weight: 205 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

              Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

              Shondek


                'As I get faster hopefully I'll be able to add more miles'.......hmm I think you've got that the wrong way round Nathan ..more miles at the correct effort  will make you faster ..let the speed come to you 

                jimmyb


                  My best 10k last year was 7:49 pace in sunny 73°. My MAF pace at the time was 10:45 for the first mile measured in 83°.

                   

                  There was a time I was in the low 8:00's for the first mile MAF (temp was about 72°Wink. That was the result of high volume and running mostly at MAF-10 and below. The result was a 1:34 (7:13) half marathon (60°Wink, and a 3:22 (7:44) marathon (48°Wink.

                   

                  My 5k PR 20:49 (6:43) in 48° equated with an MAF speed of 9:03 in 68°.

                   

                  I always do my MAF tests indoors on the TM. That's why the higher temps. If I did them at (at the time) at the equivalent temperatures at which I ended up racing--they MAF speed would have been much lower, 7-10% in some cases.

                   

                  Over the years, I can see that I need to get to certain ballparks in my tests in order to race certain speeds. The relationships between my MAF speeds and race times don't necessarily equate to anyone else's, because of the temperature variables. Also, someone might be a better racer. He or she might be able to stand more discomfort in a race and be able to eek out a better performance on the same MAF speed. I'm  sure if we massed our data, we could come up with some ballparks. For example, I'm pretty certain that if you don't get your MAF speed down to at least the 9:00's, you probably won't be able to run a 3:30 marathon or better.

                   

                  Ultimately, the best thing to do is to get your own relationships. Keep good data. MAF speed is a good indicator, but a 5k race could be also. Or a specific run that you like to do during training that is the same every time. It might be some loop that you do with hills that you run at 85% MHR. Over time, you might see that when you can run it at e.g. 8:00 pace that you can pull off a 7:30 10k.  

                   

                  Specific training runs like lacatate threshold runs are also a good piece of the puzzle.

                   

                  --Jimmy Cool

                  Log    PRs

                    'As I get faster hopefully I'll be able to add more miles'.......hmm I think you've got that the wrong way round Nathan ..more miles at the correct effort  will make you faster ..let the speed come to you 

                     

                    My limiting factor right now is time.  6 hours at a MAF pace of 11:15 gets me at 32 mpw.  6 hours at a MAF pace of 10:00 gets me 36 mpw.  That's what I mean by getting faster and adding more miles.  I think we are saying the same thing, as I continue to build my base, I'll get faster, what I'm saying that as I get faster I'll get in more mileage in the same amount of time.

                    Age: 46 Weight: 205 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                      My best 10k last year was 7:49 pace in sunny 73°. My MAF pace at the time was 10:45 for the first mile measured in 83°.

                       

                      There was a time I was in the low 8:00's for the first mile MAF (temp was about 72°Wink. That was the result of high volume and running mostly at MAF-10 and below. The result was a 1:34 (7:13) half marathon (60°Wink, and a 3:22 (7:44) marathon (48°Wink.

                       

                      My 5k PR 20:49 (6:43) in 48° equated with an MAF speed of 9:03 in 68°.

                       

                      I always do my MAF tests indoors on the TM. That's why the higher temps. If I did them at (at the time) at the equivalent temperatures at which I ended up racing--they MAF speed would have been much lower, 7-10% in some cases.

                       

                      Over the years, I can see that I need to get to certain ballparks in my tests in order to race certain speeds. The relationships between my MAF speeds and race times don't necessarily equate to anyone else's, because of the temperature variables. Also, someone might be a better racer. He or she might be able to stand more discomfort in a race and be able to eek out a better performance on the same MAF speed. I'm  sure if we massed our data, we could come up with some ballparks. For example, I'm pretty certain that if you don't get your MAF speed down to at least the 9:00's, you probably won't be able to run a 3:30 marathon or better.

                       

                      Ultimately, the best thing to do is to get your own relationships. Keep good data. MAF speed is a good indicator, but a 5k race could be also. Or a specific run that you like to do during training that is the same every time. It might be some loop that you do with hills that you run at 85% MHR. Over time, you might see that when you can run it at e.g. 8:00 pace that you can pull off a 7:30 10k.  

                       

                      Specific training runs like lacatate threshold runs are also a good piece of the puzzle.

                       

                      --Jimmy Cool

                       

                      Thanks for the input.  That's amazing that you pulled off a 7:49 pace 10K when you had a first mile MAFof 10:45.  That 83 degrees when you were running your MAF run might explain some of it, but 73 degrees would be warm for me on a 10K.  The little speculation that I've come up with was that you could expect to cut around 90 seconds off your pace running a race over what your MAF pace was, but you must have had a lot of miles in as well to knock nearly 3 minutes off your pace.

                       

                      That is also interesting to see that you keep up with the temperature for each MAF run pace that you are comparing.  I do as well, but hadn't really thought about it a lot.  That 10:45 pace at MAF in 83 degrees might be equivalent to a 10:00 pace at MAF the next day at 45 degrees. 

                       

                      I'll continue to build data for myself, but right now it's a moving target hopefully.  I think I have at least a couple years of base building in front of me before I can start really thinking about my 7:30 10K pace.

                       

                      Thanks, Nathan

                      Age: 46 Weight: 205 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                      Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                      freebrowne


                        npaden--- I just finished a 10k race a few weeks back. My MAF pace was right around 9:20mm give or take. I also ran a marathon in April so my mileage was fairly decent. Anyways, I ran the 10k in 44:43 (7:11mm I think). I was shooting for somewhere between 45 and 47 minutes. Somehow I managed to pull off a 44. I ran the marathon in 3:57. It was my first marathon and it seemed like a fairly tough course. Hope this helps.

                        http://ordinaryconstructs.blogspot.com/

                          I ran an 11:08 pace for 4.93 miles at just over MAF (ended up 2 beats over MAF actually) 2 days ago and then ran a 10K this morning at a 8:37 pace under very similar conditions.  (Comparing apples to apples and using the distance and pace on my phone for both runs).  If my run 2 days ago had been the ful 10K distance the avg pace would have dropped down at least another 4 or 5 seconds due to positive splits running at MAF.  I didn't do any speedwork or tapering to get ready for the 10K, just took yesterday off which is typically my planned rest day anyway.

                           

                          Dewpoint and wind were almost identical, both were flat routes, elevation was a little higher on the race 3,519' and on the MAF run it was 3,067'.

                           

                          Avg HR today was 173 and I really didn't push it too hard on the race, it was work no doubt but I didn't feel like I'd really gone all out at the end, I think I could have shaved a few seconds off if I had given it everything, but I was over a minute behind the guy in front of me so I didn't kill myself going all out or anything at the finish.

                           

                          Will be interesting to see how much recovery I need to get my MAF runs back on track after getting my HR up today.

                          Age: 46 Weight: 205 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27