Low HR Training

1

The Marathon Test-Low Heart Rate vs Conventional Training (Read 1076 times)

slickster3-00


    • I did two marathons this year,started training March 30, did Kona marathon June 26. Basically started with all winter weight training and skiing so was in decent shape. Training for Kona consisted of building up weekly milage to 50 by june 6th then tapering for the last 3 weeks with speed training 1 time per week in may. I trained in extra sweatpants and sweateshirt everyrun to compensate for the heat difference in Kona vs Washington state were I trained. Heart rate was kept below 150 and above 140,Im 48 with no major injuries and have been running for 2 years.Kona finish time wa 3:34 and the temp was 80 degrees for most of the course with only a few small hils and my weight was 187..I then took 3 weeks completely off and started training for Las vegas marathon.180 minus 48 gave me a 132 target rate and I added 3 to make it 135. Following this to a T! I trained for 4 weeks and took my first Maf on the local track. For 5 miles with proper warm up of 15 minutes and 60 degrees out it was an average of 11 minute miles at 130 to 135 heart rate. I then continued my training and checked my maf again 4 weeks later it had reduced to 9 minute miles average for 5 miles.I was pretty stoked ,I continued taking Maf measurement and with added speed work 3 weeks before my Las Vegas marathon it had gotten down to 8:40 avereage for 5 miles.My milage once again built up slowly  to 50 miles a week. I then tapered down for 3 weeks and ran Las Vegas last Sunday,It was cool with some wind anf relativeley flat course,there was real crowding on the course at the 13 to 15 miles and there cytomax stations were very limited costing me up maybe 5 minutes off my time --3:32 wich frankly considering the the amount of time I trained was dissapointing. For me low heart rate training for Marathon is not very beneficial I feel that for me the Vegas Marathon would have been easyer if I had trained at the 140 to 150 heart rate level , the Marathon Race distance  maynot be long enough to take full benefit of this kind of training.That being said I did enjoy my training much more with the lowered heart rate but it didnt  prepare me for my much faster race pace.
    Shondek


      • I did two marathons this year,started training March 30, did Kona marathon June 26. Basically started with all winter weight training and skiing so was in decent shape. Training for Kona consisted of building up weekly milage to 50 by june 6th then tapering for the last 3 weeks with speed training 1 time per week in may. I trained in extra sweatpants and sweateshirt everyrun to compensate for the heat difference in Kona vs Washington state were I trained. Heart rate was kept below 150 and above 140,Im 48 with no major injuries and have been running for 2 years.Kona finish time wa 3:34 and the temp was 80 degrees for most of the course with only a few small hils and my weight was 187..I then took 3 weeks completely off and started training for Las vegas marathon.180 minus 48 gave me a 132 target rate and I added 3 to make it 135. Following this to a T! I trained for 4 weeks and took my first Maf on the local track. For 5 miles with proper warm up of 15 minutes and 60 degrees out it was an average of 11 minute miles at 130 to 135 heart rate. I then continued my training and checked my maf again 4 weeks later it had reduced to 9 minute miles average for 5 miles.I was pretty stoked ,I continued taking Maf measurement and with added speed work 3 weeks before my Las Vegas marathon it had gotten down to 8:40 avereage for 5 miles.My milage once again built up slowly  to 50 miles a week. I then tapered down for 3 weeks and ran Las Vegas last Sunday,It was cool with some wind anf relativeley flat course,there was real crowding on the course at the 13 to 15 miles and there cytomax stations were very limited costing me up maybe 5 minutes off my time --3:32 wich frankly considering the the amount of time I trained was dissapointing. For me low heart rate training for Marathon is not very beneficial I feel that for me the Vegas Marathon would have been easyer if I had trained at the 140 to 150 heart rate level , the Marathon Race distance  maynot be long enough to take full benefit of this kind of training.That being said I did enjoy my training much more with the lowered heart rate but it didnt  prepare me for my much faster race pace.

       Hi slick,

      Training at 180-age is supposed to be base training until improvement stops then you train for fitness: ie speed stuff a couple of times a week for a few months  then you do the marathon ....bring that regime to the table..I cant imagine Lance Armstrong at 28 years old saying i wish I trained at hear rate 170...look and learn

       

       http://www.gametimeworkouts.com/2008/03/lance-armstrongs-3-month-training.html

      jimmyb


        • I did two marathons this year,started training March 30, did Kona marathon June 26. Basically started with all winter weight training and skiing so was in decent shape. Training for Kona consisted of building up weekly milage to 50 by june 6th then tapering for the last 3 weeks with speed training 1 time per week in may. I trained in extra sweatpants and sweateshirt everyrun to compensate for the heat difference in Kona vs Washington state were I trained. Heart rate was kept below 150 and above 140,Im 48 with no major injuries and have been running for 2 years.Kona finish time wa 3:34 and the temp was 80 degrees for most of the course with only a few small hils and my weight was 187..I then took 3 weeks completely off and started training for Las vegas marathon.180 minus 48 gave me a 132 target rate and I added 3 to make it 135. Following this to a T! I trained for 4 weeks and took my first Maf on the local track. For 5 miles with proper warm up of 15 minutes and 60 degrees out it was an average of 11 minute miles at 130 to 135 heart rate. I then continued my training and checked my maf again 4 weeks later it had reduced to 9 minute miles average for 5 miles.I was pretty stoked ,I continued taking Maf measurement and with added speed work 3 weeks before my Las Vegas marathon it had gotten down to 8:40 avereage for 5 miles.My milage once again built up slowly  to 50 miles a week. I then tapered down for 3 weeks and ran Las Vegas last Sunday,It was cool with some wind anf relativeley flat course,there was real crowding on the course at the 13 to 15 miles and there cytomax stations were very limited costing me up maybe 5 minutes off my time --3:32 wich frankly considering the the amount of time I trained was dissapointing. For me low heart rate training for Marathon is not very beneficial I feel that for me the Vegas Marathon would have been easyer if I had trained at the 140 to 150 heart rate level , the Marathon Race distance  maynot be long enough to take full benefit of this kind of training.That being said I did enjoy my training much more with the lowered heart rate but it didnt  prepare me for my much faster race pace.

          

        First, congratulations on two pretty good marathons in one year. Looks to me like you are heading in the right direction.Cool

         

        Considering the 5:00 slow down at the stations and the packed miles 13-15 that I guess slowed you down, then I wouldn't call your 3:32 (which was better than your 3:34 at Kona) a failure of MAF training so quickly. There are many other factors that go into how you finish a marathon. Let alone the fact there are good days and bad days.

         

        I've run a few marathons and know that wrong pacing can affect the outcome. You might only have a 3:25 (7:49 pace) in you, for example, and if you started the race faster than that, and let's say averaged 7:35 pace in the first half, it can easily turn a potential 3:25 into a 3:35

         

         

        What was your goal time?

        How fast did you start the race?

        First half pace vs. 2nd half pace?

        If you have splits-ahol, please post.

         

        Did you add speedwork during your taper for Kona and in past marathons?

         

        A note or two:

         

        *You took three weeks off, then started to train at your calculated MAF. You went from 11:00 minutes to 9:00 minutes in 4 weeks. Then to 8:40 by the marathon:  A 3 week total break from training after a marathon can reduce your aerobic fitness quite a bit. I am pretty certain your MAF pace going into Kona wasn't 11:00. Looking at how fast you came back in 4 weeks, I would say it was probably in the rough neighborhood of 9:00. Normally, if someone gets in to MAF training, and they are aerobically deficient, and they are an 11:00, they are not going to knock 2:00 off their MAF in 4 weeks. Some runners who come back from a layoff, will get their pace back quickly like you did. So, it's hard to say for certain just how much you increased your aerobic fitness compared to what it was before Kona. It doesn't look like a lot to me.

         

        --8:40-9:00 ish brought me a 3:22 in a marathon with evenly split halves. 

        --900-9:20ish brought me a 3:28 in a marathon with evenly split halves

         

        --Training at MAF is only half of the training program, the parts that make up the other half are solid anaerobic training at 90%MHR or less, good rest and dietary habits, and monitoring MAF tests throughout all phases of racing and training.

         

        --you can't expect fresh, zippy legs coming out of the base phase. Knowing that, I usually ended my base phase long before the taper. I'd start anaerobic 8-10 weeks out from the marathon, sometimes further out. Adding in tempo runs at LT and marathon pace. Some progression runs.

        By the time I got to he taper, it was time to stop anaerobic work, cut back gradually, and  REST, not add speedwork. I tried speedwork once during the taper, and it played at least a small part in a very ugly marathon.

         

        --Jimmy  Cool

         

        P.S. How did you place in your age-group at Kona vs. at LV (eg. you might have finished top 20% at LV and top 10% at Kona)?

        Log    PRs

          --you can't expect fresh, zippy legs coming out of the base phase.

           

           

          er, why not expect fresh legs? isn't base phase all easy running?

          jimmyb


            er, why not expect fresh legs? isn't base phase all easy running?

             

            I used the word fresh, but didn't mean fresh---not the best choice of word. WHat I was trying to get across is that after a base phase, developing the anaerobic system in necessary. Usually my first race, if I haven't done any tempos, my legs will feel heavy and not zippy. Once I sharpen the anaerobic with tempos or some more races, then that feeling of race-ready zippiness comes back. A balanced feeling.

             

            --Jimmy

            Log    PRs

            slickster3-00


              Cool  Hey Jimmy ,great info, Thanks ,basically came to the same conclusion as far as more speed work needed, in Kona its a small race so the age group was 40-49 were I got 24%, and in vegas it was 45-49 were i placed 14% ,last year in portland I placed 11 % age group with a 3:28,my splits for Vegas fell aprt at mile 14-15 in the crowd ( I exspected more from the lowered heart rate training especially the later half of the race were I though it would give me more energy through fat burning )as I lost pace with the 3:20 pace group, anyways my maf did continue to improve over time , and I will  domore  marathon pace  work for my next marathon  ,thnx for your detailed reply. I am training for Panama city Ironman this nxt season,any input on a good online coaching program would be appreciated,I have local help for technique but there limited in there long race exsperience....

              First, congratulations on two pretty good marathons in one year. Looks to me like you are heading in the right direction.Cool

               

              Considering the 5:00 slow down at the stations and the packed miles 13-15 that I guess slowed you down, then I wouldn't call your 3:32 (which was better than your 3:34 at Kona) a failure of MAF training so quickly. There are many other factors that go into how you finish a marathon. Let alone the fact there are good days and bad days.

               

              I've run a few marathons and know that wrong pacing can affect the outcome. You might only have a 3:25 (7:49 pace) in you, for example, and if you started the race faster than that, and let's say averaged 7:35 pace in the first half, it can easily turn a potential 3:25 into a 3:35

               

               

              What was your goal time?

              How fast did you start the race?

              First half pace vs. 2nd half pace?

              If you have splits-ahol, please post.

               

              Did you add speedwork during your taper for Kona and in past marathons?

               

              A note or two:

               

              *You took three weeks off, then started to train at your calculated MAF. You went from 11:00 minutes to 9:00 minutes in 4 weeks. Then to 8:40 by the marathon:  A 3 week total break from training after a marathon can reduce your aerobic fitness quite a bit. I am pretty certain your MAF pace going into Kona wasn't 11:00. Looking at how fast you came back in 4 weeks, I would say it was probably in the rough neighborhood of 9:00. Normally, if someone gets in to MAF training, and they are aerobically deficient, and they are an 11:00, they are not going to knock 2:00 off their MAF in 4 weeks. Some runners who come back from a layoff, will get their pace back quickly like you did. So, it's hard to say for certain just how much you increased your aerobic fitness compared to what it was before Kona. It doesn't look like a lot to me.

               

              --8:40-9:00 ish brought me a 3:22 in a marathon with evenly split halves. 

              --900-9:20ish brought me a 3:28 in a marathon with evenly split halves

               

              --Training at MAF is only half of the training program, the parts that make up the other half are solid anaerobic training at 90%MHR or less, good rest and dietary habits, and monitoring MAF tests throughout all phases of racing and training.

               

              --you can't expect fresh, zippy legs coming out of the base phase. Knowing that, I usually ended my base phase long before the taper. I'd start anaerobic 8-10 weeks out from the marathon, sometimes further out. Adding in tempo runs at LT and marathon pace. Some progression runs.

              By the time I got to he taper, it was time to stop anaerobic work, cut back gradually, and  REST, not add speedwork. I tried speedwork once during the taper, and it played at least a small part in a very ugly marathon.

               

              --Jimmy  Cool

               

              P.S. How did you place in your age-group at Kona vs. at LV (eg. you might have finished top 20% at LV and top 10% at Kona)?I finished 28 % in kona but the group was 40 to 49 and 14% in Las Vegas, also in porltand Marathon last year I ran a 3:28 and was 11%..

              slickster3-00


                 Hey Shondek,thnx  for your inputSmile and the link, my maf did continue to improve throughout training,I guess my own personal conclusion to be clear is that 180 minus my age would work better for me if I was 38 instead of 48,so I plan on using a 140 to 145 heart rate for MARATHON or half Marathon  base training (diff body types and abilities I'm not sure 180 minus age is appropriate for everyone) Unless I'm suffering injuries, that will be my starting point next time ..I am doing an Ironman next so The 180 minus age will be my starting point for that for sure..

                 Hi slick,

                Training at 180-age is supposed to be base training until improvement stops then you train for fitness: ie speed stuff a couple of times a week for a few months  then you do the marathon ....bring that regime to the table..I cant imagine Lance Armstrong at 28 years old saying i wish I trained at hear rate 170...look and learn

                 

                 http://www.gametimeworkouts.com/2008/03/lance-armstrongs-3-month-training.html

                jimmyb


                  Cool  Hey Jimmy ,great info, Thanks ,basically came to the same conclusion as far as more speed work needed, in Kona its a small race so the age group was 40-49 were I got 24%, and in vegas it was 45-49 were i placed 14% ,last year in portland I placed 11 % age group with a 3:28,my splits for Vegas fell aprt at mile 14-15 in the crowd ( I exspected more from the lowered heart rate training especially the later half of the race were I though it would give me more energy through fat burning )as I lost pace with the 3:20 pace group, anyways my maf did continue to improve over time , and I will  domore  marathon pace  work for my next marathon  ,thnx for your detailed reply. I am training for Panama city Ironman this nxt season,any input on a good online coaching program would be appreciated,I have local help for technique but there limited in there long race exsperience....

                   

                  You're welcome. 

                   

                  It's quite possible 3:20 pace was too fast for you on that day, under all the possible variables affecting you. Let's say you had just a 3:22-3:25 in you, then starting at 3:20 pace or faster could result in a slower second half. 

                   

                  When running by pace (some run by HR), it is good to have a handy set of indicators that can help you determine what is possible for you on that day. Here are a few that I use:

                   

                  --MAF test pace. I pretty much know that I need to be 9:00-9:20 to be in the 3:28-3:30 range. 8:40ish for 3:22ish.

                   

                  --marathon race pace tempo run using heart rate. My best possible average HR for a marathon is aprox 170 (85%MHR). I do a 10-mile run that is in a zone of 155-170. The resulting pace is usually close to what I can do in the marathon. I'll do several of these runs after the base phase.

                   

                  --run a few tune-up races. Maybe a 10k or half marathon. Then use the Team Oregon Pace Wizard. Pop in your race time and see what the WIz gives you for a best possible marathon time. This particular calculator tends to be very close. But you have to be aerobically fit to hit the number. Going faster than it is probably not doable. Let's say it gives you a best possible pace of  7:38, then it would be wise to start the race at about 8:00 pace in the first mile, getting to 7:38 by the 3-4 mile, then holding the pace. If you are aerobically fit enough to run 7:38, you will have a good second half.

                   

                  Combining all of those has really helped me to nail down paces. The one time I ignored the MAF pace, I paid dearly. In fall 2008, I began marathon training and got up to my usual volume, but my MAF tests were not improving, and actually regressed a bit. Normally, they would get  down to the 9:00 area (give or take 15 seconds). They regressed to 10:00ish. I was under a lot of stress at the time from life. My MRP indicator was fine, but I didn't do a tune-up race like I normally do. I started the marathon at a 3:30:00 pace, and hit the wall at mile 16. Essentially what happened is that under the amount of life stress I was experiencing, the training volume was too high, and I over-trained. With a 10:00 MAF test pace, I probably only had a 3:45-3:50 in me. Learned big time that when the MAF tests aren't improving like they should, something is wrong. In that case, I should have cut my training volume down until they started improving.

                   

                  If you take anything with you from the method, take the MAF test. EVen if you never run another base period at MAF again, that test will let you know how your aerobic system is doing, and help to avoid over-training.

                   

                  I'm not a triathlete. The only site I know of is Mark Allen on-line coaching.

                   

                  BTW, I'm not sure if you have ever read about Allen's training (CLICK). It's how I train, but to a much lesser volume. The periodization is the same. It's a good example of how the base phase (Allen calls it the "patience phase") fits in to a yearly schedule, and also how to use the MAF test to guide you through all phases.

                   

                   

                   

                  --JImmy

                  Log    PRs

                  slickster3-00


                    Thanks Jimmi ,your knowledge base is priceless! The world needsCool more Jimmies

                      I used the word fresh, but didn't mean fresh---not the best choice of word. WHat I was trying to get across is that after a base phase, developing the anaerobic system in necessary. Usually my first race, if I haven't done any tempos, my legs will feel heavy and not zippy. Once I sharpen the anaerobic with tempos or some more races, then that feeling of race-ready zippiness comes back. A balanced feeling.

                       

                      --Jimmy

                       

                       

                      ah, ok, I get that now, thanks. Smile that's really interesting how according to your experiences the legs could have that heaviness even though there is no overtraining..