Low HR Training

1

How to Proceed from Maffetone to Race Pace (Read 797 times)

kfmfe04


    It's a little early to be asking this, as I am just finishing up my 4th week of Maffetone, but I like to plan/look ahead:  it's motivational for me.

     

    I intend to complete at least 12 weeks of MAF=138 runs.  On a typical day, I will start at MAF-20 and add one bpm every 0.5km, maxing out at MAF if my run is 10km or longer.  In order to add meaningful volume, I will wog at least 1 hour every day - so far, I have found that rest or recovery days haven't been necessary.  Progress has been slow, but steady, if I look in the right places (not necessarily a faster pace - perhaps a slower hr, feeling stronger after a run, getting comfortable under adverse conditions, or extending distance without significant loss of pace).  It would be nice to do a marathon in October or November under 4 hrs.

     

    What is an effect way of proceeding from Maffetone to race pace?

     

    • Assume that I have completed at least 12 weeks of MAF.
    • If possible, avoid using MAX HR (seems like it's a moving target) as a reference point, depending on stress, weather, mood, rest, etc...
    • I realize that there will be a range of answers, from a safe run-under-MAF the entire race to throw away the HRM and gun it.  Hopefully, there will be some useful solutions that fall in between the two extremes.
    • With the goal of reducing chance-of-bonking to less than 5% (ignore injuries and dehydration), how far above MAF should I go?

    In particular, I am especially interested in sharpening methodologies which reference HR according MAF.

     

    I have read in the archived cool runnings forums, comments from Jesse Leitner to the effect that race pace can be 20+ bpm over MAF, but he doesn't quite mention his sharpening methodologies besides MAF all the training runs and use races themselves to sharpen.

     

    Maybe that's a workable methodology?  Anyone else try the same method? 

     

    - Ken

    Age:42, MAF:138, 168cm/5'6", 62.2kg/137lb (from 73kg/161lb), BF: 14.9%

    Goals:  MAF10k@56:50, 59kg/130lb (32 days to go)

    Stage: Trying to get back to MAF Base Building after muscle strain injury

    My Training Log

     

    Shondek


      I'm still not sure how I am going to approach the anaerobic side of things but I still have at least another 6 months before I stop improving.

      Maffetone says something like this 'speedwork  is very high risk with minimal gain'.Most of your speed will come from  Maf,and by the time you have reached your full potential(iie you wait til you stop improving in maf) you'll know your body so  well that you will  probably have the confidence to go straight into racing.

       

      If you cut short your maf training in order to race then maybe intervals and 1 hour runs @ maf+? is the way.But why would you want to do that.

       

      A method that works for me in races is to blast it in the first half then blast it in the second Smile

        It's a little early to be asking this, as I am just finishing up my 4th week of Maffetone, but I like to plan/look ahead:  it's motivational for me.

         

        I intend to complete at least 12 weeks of MAF=138 runs.  On a typical day, I will start at MAF-20 and add one bpm every 0.5km, maxing out at MAF if my run is 10km or longer.  In order to add meaningful volume, I will wog at least 1 hour every day - so far, I have found that rest or recovery days haven't been necessary.  Progress has been slow, but steady, if I look in the right places (not necessarily a faster pace - perhaps a slower hr, feeling stronger after a run, getting comfortable under adverse conditions, or extending distance without significant loss of pace).  It would be nice to do a marathon in October or November under 4 hrs.

         

        What is an effect way of proceeding from Maffetone to race pace?

         

        • Assume that I have completed at least 12 weeks of MAF.
        • If possible, avoid using MAX HR (seems like it's a moving target) as a reference point, depending on stress, weather, mood, rest, etc...
        • I realize that there will be a range of answers, from a safe run-under-MAF the entire race to throw away the HRM and gun it.  Hopefully, there will be some useful solutions that fall in between the two extremes.
        • With the goal of reducing chance-of-bonking to less than 5% (ignore injuries and dehydration), how far above MAF should I go?

        In particular, I am especially interested in sharpening methodologies which reference HR according MAF.

         

        I have read in the archived cool runnings forums, comments from Jesse Leitner to the effect that race pace can be 20+ bpm over MAF, but he doesn't quite mention his sharpening methodologies besides MAF all the training runs and use races themselves to sharpen.

         

        Maybe that's a workable methodology?  Anyone else try the same method? 

         

        - Ken

         

        From what I've read, MaxHR is NOT a moving target, its pretty much set, but will decrease slightly over time as we age. It may seem like a moving target in that there will be days where you just can't push yourself to get near it, and other days when the HR approaches it rather quickly.

         

        As for race pace it depends on the distance. My MAF is 140 and I average over 180 in a 5k, upper 170's in a 10k and low 170's for a half marathon. I've yet to run a full marathon, but I'd suspect something in the mid to upper 160's. I don't run by my HR, but I do have it on for analysis purposes after the race and to compare effort for different races. Running a race safely "run-under-MAF" for the entire race is not racing in my eyes, its a long training run.

         

        For the marathon, you could try the marco calculator and follow the HR recommendations. I think RunnerClay has used it before with some success.. For training, I would probably go with a more traditional marathon running program in prep for your race, that is of course if you feel your base has been developed to a sufficient level.

         

        The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

         

        2014 Goals:

         

        Stay healthy

        Enjoy life

         

        kfmfe04


          Thank you for your suggestions, Shondek and Burnt Toast.

           

          I have begun reading up on Pfitzinger so I better understand what needs to be done once I get beyond the aerobic base-building stage.

           

          For someone who DNFed (bonked at 33km/20.5mi) his first marathon a few years back, I wonder how many months before a race I should allocate to training beyond base-building.  My wild guess at this point is maybe 4-6 weeks - I will keep reading up on Advanced Marathoning to see what Pfitzinger says...

           

          - Ken

          Age:42, MAF:138, 168cm/5'6", 62.2kg/137lb (from 73kg/161lb), BF: 14.9%

          Goals:  MAF10k@56:50, 59kg/130lb (32 days to go)

          Stage: Trying to get back to MAF Base Building after muscle strain injury

          My Training Log

           

          rarian


            As you have a copy of Advanced Marathining I expect you'll find it on the lead page of each chapter of schedules (I have the first edition): "we recommend the 18-week schedule for most situations."


            Consistently Slow

              As you have a copy of Advanced Marathining I expect you'll find it on the lead page of each chapter of schedules (I have the first edition): "we recommend the 18-week schedule for most situations."

               I used a HR of 155-160 for my 1st marathon after Maffing.Training runs(<10 miles) I started doing at Maff(125). I did not do any speed work. My marathon was(JAN 30)3:57 : x x.However, I did do 2 -50 k's(NOV)  6:30: x x (knee issue) and a marathon(JAN 16) 5:55: x x pacing a friend.

               

              I used Advanced Marathon Training( up to 55 mpw) to BQ.Managed the 55mpw 1 time. I started in week 12. I did  5 ultras / marathons in 30 days before starting AMT.AMT is hard. I had to make adjustments. I did only 1 tempo run on the track. 3 x 1 mile w/ 3:00R became my bread and butter.

               

              A late November / December marathon would give you more time.

               

              PS: Given your age, weight and  projected mileage <4 looks doable just doing Maff training.

              Run until the trail runs out.

              2013***1500 miles

              50 miler

              Race Less Train More

               

              Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

              "The Marble in The Groove"

               

              unsolicited chatter

              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

              kfmfe04


                 I used a HR of 155-160 for my 1st marathon after Maffing.Training runs(<10 miles) I started doing at Maff(125). I did not do any speed work. My marathon was(JAN 30)3:57 : x x.However, I did do 2 -50 k's(NOV)  6:30: x x (knee issue) and a marathon(JAN 16) 5:55: x x pacing a friend.

                 

                I used Advanced Marathon Training( up to 55 mpw) to BQ.Managed the 55mpw 1 time. I started in week 12. I did  5 ultras / marathons in 30 days before starting AMT.AMT is hard. I had to make adjustments. I did only 1 tempo run on the track. 3 x 1 mile w/ 3:00R became my bread and butter.

                 

                A late November / December marathon would give you more time.

                 

                PS: Given your age, weight and  projected mileage <4 looks doable just doing Maff training.

                 

                Thank you, Runnerclay, for sharing your experience - there are many nuggets of useful advice in that short post!

                It's very encouraging to hear from someone who may have walked a similar path in the past.

                 

                Wow - BQ - that's so far beyond me that I can't imagine anything like that (maybe after 10 years of base building Wink)

                 

                BTW, can any marathon be used to BQ or is there an official list?

                 

                Your comment that <4 is possible using just MAF is encouraging.  I will also heed your warning on AMT.  I think I will use it just to understand the anaerobic training process and adapt it for myself - the schedules in the book just look too intense for me (maybe something like 1 tempo run every 1 or 2 weeks - I have to read up).

                 

                I will also look into if I can do a DEC or maybe JAN/FEB race instead!

                 

                - Ken

                Age:42, MAF:138, 168cm/5'6", 62.2kg/137lb (from 73kg/161lb), BF: 14.9%

                Goals:  MAF10k@56:50, 59kg/130lb (32 days to go)

                Stage: Trying to get back to MAF Base Building after muscle strain injury

                My Training Log

                 


                Consistently Slow

                  Marathons normal will indicate if it is a BQ.

                  Run until the trail runs out.

                  2013***1500 miles

                  50 miler

                  Race Less Train More

                   

                  Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                  "The Marble in The Groove"

                   

                  unsolicited chatter

                  http://bkclay.blogspot.com/