Low HR Training

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nose breathing (Read 1106 times)

stephenmarklay


    I real quick food for thought post.

     

    I find that it is not problem belly breathing (nose only) at my MAF HR.  I was just playing with it today for fun on the bike.  I had the idea from the book Chi Running in which he states to breath through your nose for your endurance running.

     

    I think there is a natural nervous system response to this that allows a slightly lower HR.

     

    Speculation but hey why not I am not getting paid Smile

      I real quick food for thought post.

       

      I find that it is not problem belly breathing (nose only) at my MAF HR.  I was just playing with it today for fun on the bike.  I had the idea from the book Chi Running in which he states to breath through your nose for your endurance running.

       

      I think there is a natural nervous system response to this that allows a slightly lower HR.

       

      Speculation but hey why not I am not getting paid Smile

       

       

      nose breathing doesn't mean anything. it depends on habit and on whether there is anything in your nose that blocks air or not.

       

      I can and regularly do nose breathing during running up to my LT. (both breathing IN and OUT through the nose.)

       

      I give up nose breathing past my LT because I need significantly more air then.

       

      at low HR's such as MAF, I'm sometimes not sure if I'm breathing at all Smile might as well be sitting at  home.

        I real quick food for thought post.

         

        I find that it is not problem belly breathing (nose only) at my MAF HR.  I was just playing with it today for fun on the bike.  I had the idea from the book Chi Running in which he states to breath through your nose for your endurance running.

         

        I think there is a natural nervous system response to this that allows a slightly lower HR.

         

        Speculation but hey why not I am not getting paid Smile

         

        A snippit for you from Ultimate Health and Conditioning

         

        The Correlation Between Breath Rate and Heart Rate

        Probably the most frustrating and difficult aspect of nasal
        breathing for beginners is that initially, it feels like you’re
        breathing through two, tiny cocktail straws . The passage way from
        the nose to the lungs is much smaller than from the mouth to the
        lungs, so until you’ve developed a strong diaphragm that is able to
        effectively pull air into the lower lobes of the lungs, you will
        feel like you’re not getting enough air.

         

        I see this as a blessing in disguise. By this point in the season,
        most of us are over trained and NEED to slow down. Nasal breathing
        will force you to slow down in the beginning, giving your body the
        appropriate rest that it needs and deserves after months of hard
        work. As with any muscle, the more you use it the stronger it
        becomes. Through nasal breathing, the diaphragm will become a
        stronger, more efficient muscle, making nasal breathing considerably
        easier with time and practice.

         

        Due to the need for longer, deeper breaths, one of the inherent
        results of nasal breathing is a slower breath rate. There is a
        direct correlation between breath rate and heart rate so that a
        slower breath rate will entrain a slower heart rate. The average
        athlete who consistently uses mouth breathing will have a breath
        rate of anywhere between 30-40 breaths per minute during exercise.
        During nasal breathing this number is generally cut in half! This
        has an incredible amount of significance when you realize that
        simply though nasal breathing, you can lower your breath rate which
        will in turn, lower your heart rate at any given intensity. The end
        result being that during a race, you’d have more in your energy
        reserves to out-run your competitors!

         

        The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

         

        2014 Goals:

         

        Stay healthy

        Enjoy life

         

          A snippit for you from Ultimate Health and Conditioning

           

          The Correlation Between Breath Rate and Heart Rate

          Probably the most frustrating and difficult aspect of nasal
          breathing for beginners is that initially, it feels like you’re
          breathing through two, tiny cocktail straws . The passage way from
          the nose to the lungs is much smaller than from the mouth to the
          lungs, so until you’ve developed a strong diaphragm that is able to
          effectively pull air into the lower lobes of the lungs, you will
          feel like you’re not getting enough air.

           

          I see this as a blessing in disguise. By this point in the season,
          most of us are over trained and NEED to slow down. Nasal breathing
          will force you to slow down in the beginning, giving your body the
          appropriate rest that it needs and deserves after months of hard
          work. As with any muscle, the more you use it the stronger it
          becomes. Through nasal breathing, the diaphragm will become a
          stronger, more efficient muscle, making nasal breathing considerably
          easier with time and practice.

           

          Due to the need for longer, deeper breaths, one of the inherent
          results of nasal breathing is a slower breath rate. There is a
          direct correlation between breath rate and heart rate so that a
          slower breath rate will entrain a slower heart rate. The average
          athlete who consistently uses mouth breathing will have a breath
          rate of anywhere between 30-40 breaths per minute during exercise.
          During nasal breathing this number is generally cut in half! This
          has an incredible amount of significance when you realize that
          simply though nasal breathing, you can lower your breath rate which
          will in turn, lower your heart rate at any given intensity. The end
          result being that during a race, you’d have more in your energy
          reserves to out-run your competitors!

           

           

          that's all great...I nose breathe and you are right, it means a slower breath rate too. yet my HR is still pretty crazy high. =)

          stephenmarklay


            Interesting.  That was kind of my seat of the pants conjecture.  

             

             

            A snippit for you from Ultimate Health and Conditioning

             

            The Correlation Between Breath Rate and Heart Rate

            Probably the most frustrating and difficult aspect of nasal
            breathing for beginners is that initially, it feels like you’re
            breathing through two, tiny cocktail straws . The passage way from
            the nose to the lungs is much smaller than from the mouth to the
            lungs, so until you’ve developed a strong diaphragm that is able to
            effectively pull air into the lower lobes of the lungs, you will
            feel like you’re not getting enough air.

             

            I see this as a blessing in disguise. By this point in the season,
            most of us are over trained and NEED to slow down. Nasal breathing
            will force you to slow down in the beginning, giving your body the
            appropriate rest that it needs and deserves after months of hard
            work. As with any muscle, the more you use it the stronger it
            becomes. Through nasal breathing, the diaphragm will become a
            stronger, more efficient muscle, making nasal breathing considerably
            easier with time and practice.

             

            Due to the need for longer, deeper breaths, one of the inherent
            results of nasal breathing is a slower breath rate. There is a
            direct correlation between breath rate and heart rate so that a
            slower breath rate will entrain a slower heart rate. The average
            athlete who consistently uses mouth breathing will have a breath
            rate of anywhere between 30-40 breaths per minute during exercise.
            During nasal breathing this number is generally cut in half! This
            has an incredible amount of significance when you realize that
            simply though nasal breathing, you can lower your breath rate which
            will in turn, lower your heart rate at any given intensity. The end
            result being that during a race, you’d have more in your energy
            reserves to out-run your competitors!

            jimmyb


            port-a-bella-potty

              I figure the regulator in my brain knows a lot better than

              me how much oxygen my body needs at any given time

              when running, and what orifae I should be breathing through (I tried

              breathing through my ass once--nothing but

              farts and a lot of gasping for air in panic).

              Log    PRs

              stephenmarklay


                Who knows.  It is at least some way of regulating intensity.

                 

                I think you could train without a HR (in a pinch) this way after doing so in training and very precisely know your HR.  Like a honed in RPE.

                 

                Not advocating anything but I am practicing this. myself.

                  Who knows.  It is at least some way of regulating intensity.

                   

                  I think you could train without a HR (in a pinch) this way after doing so in training and very precisely know your HR.  Like a honed in RPE.

                   

                  Not advocating anything but I am practicing this. myself.

                   

                   

                  if you don't pay close attention then your RPE is affected by feedback from muscles.

                   

                  the HRM is nice as it will let you track exactly one specific component of the RPE. I mean, I noticed there is at least two: 1) oxygen use/"aerobic load" 2) muscle feedback - HRM lets you see 1).

                   

                  but yeah, you can zone into this without a HRM, just have to pay more close attention...

                   

                  so I wear the HRM and pay attention to it simply out of laziness. Smile

                  stephenmarklay


                    I do wear mine also but it was just a thought about it.  I do think the RPE does have some validity however.

                     

                    HR is great but not perfect.  Maffetone likes to use the same MAF calculation for all types of activity as he found that it works best that way.  However, HR does have some variability.  For instance.  If I am on my bike rollers in a racing position my HR is about 5 beats lower than if I sit up.  And if I stand and do not at all increase my exertion, my HR goes up 5 beats.  So I am fine with the MAF calculation but won't worry about those transitional times as noted.  I also think nose breathing is a useful modulator.

                     

                     

                    Check this new article about it and the treatment of asthma

                     

                    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/health/03brod.html?_r=1 

                     

                     

                     

                    if you don't pay close attention then your RPE is affected by feedback from muscles.

                     

                    the HRM is nice as it will let you track exactly one specific component of the RPE. I mean, I noticed there is at least two: 1) oxygen use/"aerobic load" 2) muscle feedback - HRM lets you see 1).

                     

                    but yeah, you can zone into this without a HRM, just have to pay more close attention...

                     

                    so I wear the HRM and pay attention to it simply out of laziness. Smile

                      I do wear mine also but it was just a thought about it.  I do think the RPE does have some validity however.

                       

                      HR is great but not perfect.  Maffetone likes to use the same MAF calculation for all types of activity as he found that it works best that way.  However, HR does have some variability.  For instance.  If I am on my bike rollers in a racing position my HR is about 5 beats lower than if I sit up.  And if I stand and do not at all increase my exertion, my HR goes up 5 beats.  So I am fine with the MAF calculation but won't worry about those transitional times as noted.  I also think nose breathing is a useful modulator.

                       

                       

                      Check this new article about it and the treatment of asthma

                       

                      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/health/03brod.html?_r=1 

                       

                       

                      well, if you sit up then the load on your cardiovascular system increases, and that's extra stress. maffetone's logic seems to be that a certain HR is a certain level of stress. I have to agree with him on that.

                       

                      by stress I also mean that the RQ number will change at a higher HR, simply because of relative oxygen debt (this is my understanding anyway - I hope I got the idea right Smile )

                      stephenmarklay


                        It does make sense in that if your HR goes up there i reason.  These transient times are small and since I am training at the -5 HR HR right now I am still at MAF or below during these small transitions.

                        Rich Watson


                          At MAF (137 BPM) breathing through my nose is the norm.

                          In fact after 14 weeks at 137 I've just put my MAF HR up to 142 BPM because at 137 it felt way too easy and although I feel stronger over distance, I'm certainly no quicker.

                          At 137 my MAF time per mile was 9 mins at best but nominaly around 9:20 pace.

                          Now I'm running at average of 8:30 pace and actually feel as though I'm achieving something.

                            At MAF (137 BPM) breathing through my nose is the norm.

                            In fact after 14 weeks at 137 I've just put my MAF HR up to 142 BPM because at 137 it felt way too easy and although I feel stronger over distance, I'm certainly no quicker.

                            At 137 my MAF time per mile was 9 mins at best but nominaly around 9:20 pace.

                            Now I'm running at average of 8:30 pace and actually feel as though I'm achieving something.

                             

                             

                            how old are you? do you know your max HR?

                             

                            see if you are improving at 142. still nose breathing at 142?

                            Rich Watson


                              I'm 43. I have been active since being around 13 years old and among other sports have a background of swimming, cycle racing, triathlon and running. Had a burn out around 30 though. I was of the opinion that 'no pain no gain' was the only way and paid the price. I got to the point were I couldnt train for more than two weeks without getting a cold and gave up on the idea of regular training for events. I still kept active riding my cycle to work and back, a bit of gym work and the odd 3 mile run. I've therefore never been out of shape since knocking competitive sport on the head.

                              I started training back in September after I did a one of 5k run and wasn't pleased with the time. I was literally 4 minutes off my PB.

                              Around March time after reading one of Maffetones books on HR training I went and bought the big book of endurance and thought I'd give his methods a try. I set out on the 180 - 43 = 137 and stuck with it. Initially my aerobic speed  improved, say the first month. I seemed to hit a plateau after that and although I'm generally fitter endurance wise my MAF hasn't improved a whole lot (around 1 minute per mile) . I've therefore decided to add the 5 BPM, as recommended by Maffetone,  for those who have trained, raced for the past couple of years without injury or sickness. I've found that the pace at 140 to 142 feels right and is much easier to maintain i.e. I'm not constantly having to slow down to achieve a lower HR and I feel as though I'm actually training.

                              I'm not sure about nose breathing at 142 BPM. I'll try it now and let you know.

                               

                              Okay I've done a run and although I can breath through my nose at 142 BPM it's more comfortable to breath through my mouth at anything above 140 BPM.

                              jimmyb


                              port-a-bella-potty

                                I'm 43. I have been active since being around 13 years old and among other sports have a background of swimming, cycle racing, triathlon and running. Had a burn out around 30 though. I was of the opinion that 'no pain no gain' was the only way and paid the price. I got to the point were I couldnt train for more than two weeks without getting a cold and gave up on the idea of regular training for events. I still kept active riding my cycle to work and back, a bit of gym work and the odd 3 mile run. I've therefore never been out of shape since knocking competitive sport on the head.

                                I started training back in September after I did a one of 5k run and wasn't pleased with the time. I was literally 4 minutes off my PB.

                                Around March time after reading one of Maffetones books on HR training I went and bought the big book of endurance and thought I'd give his methods a try. I set out on the 180 - 43 = 137 and stuck with it. Initially my aerobic speed  improved, say the first month. I seemed to hit a plateau after that and although I'm generally fitter endurance wise my MAF hasn't improved a whole lot (around 1 minute per mile) . I've therefore decided to add the 5 BPM, as recommended by Maffetone,  for those who have trained, raced for the past couple of years without injury or sickness. I've found that the pace at 140 to 142 feels right and is much easier to maintain i.e. I'm not constantly having to slow down to achieve a lower HR and I feel as though I'm actually training.

                                I'm not sure about nose breathing at 142 BPM. I'll try it now and let you know.

                                 

                                Hey Rich,

                                 

                                Welcome to the board!Cool

                                 

                                1 minute of improvement in your MAF tests since March is actually very substantial. Especially since your pace must have started out around 10:00-10:20ish, and got down to 9:00-9:20. That's almost 10% in just three months! A plateau can be a few things. It wasn't caused by working out at 137, though. Even if your MAF should have been 142 from the beginning, you can see improvements from working in a ten beat zone below MAF, and some runners have seen improvement going even lower. Sometimes, it's a volume problem. You either need less, or you need more. It can be a life stress problem--some added stress has occurred. It also can be just that you hit the warmer months of the year. Not uncommon to see a plateau. The temperatures alone can mask improvement for awhile--you hit a plateau then start to improve once your body acclimates.It could also be that it's time for some anaerobic workouts to get some balance. 12-16 weeks can be enough time for an aerobic base phase.

                                 

                                Not saying you shouldn't be working out at 142, that's your call, and your MAF tests will indicate whether or not it's a good choice. The key to this training is the MAF test, no matter what you decide to experiment with. Keep going! Awesome work so far.

                                 

                                --Jimmy

                                 

                                P.S. Running at MAF feels real easy. Maffetone writes that it will feel easy, but some runners get so fast at MAF, that they end up having to use a lower HR than MAF for some training runs, because they find running at MAF uncomfortable. This is tied to his discussion of aerobic intervals in many of his books. I imagine he's talking about athletes like Mark Allen who ended up with 5:20 pace or better in MAF tests. I imagine it's relative though, and maybe my 5:20 would be a 7:20. I'll let you know if ever get there. It will be world news.

                                Log    PRs

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