Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 6015 times)


Consistently Slow

    Run until the trail runs out.

    2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

    50miler 13:26:18

    Race Less Train More

     Pistol 100 ----01/03/15

    Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

    "The Marble in The Groove"

     

    unsolicited chatter

    http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

    C-R


      Good workout today. No HRM but it was definitely in the anaerobic zone. 16 miles in just over 2:03 with the last mile at 6:22 and 1/4 of that was uphill. We progressively got faster during the run. This was a good fitness check for some upcoming races in prep for Boston.


      "He conquers who endures" - Persius
      "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

      http://ncstake.blogspot.com/

      jimmyb


        Long run

        2:00:00

        10.38 miles

        tm 1% incline

        73 degrees F

        60% H

         

        13:23 108

        11:45 122

        11:19 130

        11:19 134

        11:19 137

        11:19 139

        11:19 140

        11:19 142

        11:19 143

        11:19 145

        04:17 145

         

        My first anaerobic workout today (if you don't count that test I did last week) after a lengthy aerobic base period.

        Anaerobic in Maffetonian terms (over MAF). I warmed up to my MAF, taking 30 minutes to do so, then just held that

        speed and let my HR go where it may. Interesting that the rate of HR drift slowed

        after a fast rise from 130-139. Only rising 6 more beats the rest of the way.

         

        The run was aerobic by the usual definitions. I have a 50%fat/50% sugar

        burning RQ in the neighborhood of 145. So, still burning ample fat during

        the run.

         

        --Jimmy

        Log    PRs

          7 miles.

          55:30

          HR average:137

          Average pace: 7:59 min/mile-( in the middle 7 km, I was able to keep 7:40 pace with HR of 138-140)

           

          For the last 4 weeks, after doing MAF training 4 months, I started over MAF training 1-2 times a week. Today's run (sub 8) has come out to be the fastest.  I go easy, that is still 50% fat burning, ( Thanks to Jimmy ; his test has ensured me ) I plan to go the same effort for a couple of weeks more with constant HR and hope to improve my speed more.

           

          I am a slow trainer by nature; what I find astonishing after all these years of running, following a sufficiently long slow base period how it becomes magically easy running with 2 minutes of improvement in the pace!!!!

           

          Oguz.

          jimmyb


            Medium Long Run

            HR progression run

            13:27 103

            11:55 122

            11:05 126

            10:55 135

            10:43 142

            10:35 146

            10:11 152

            09:58 156

            09:44 161

            06:28 165 (.67mi @ 9:40 pace)

             

            9.67 miles

            1:45:00

             

            This was a progression run in which I used the following HR plan:

             

            0:00:00--0:30:00 100-130 bpm (MAF=130, warmup)

            0:30:00--0:55:00 130-142 bpm (55-63% HRR)

            0:55:00--1:20:00 142-154 bpm (63-71% HRR)

            1:20:00--1:45:00 154-165 bpm (71-78% HRR)

             

            --Jimmy

            Log    PRs

            jimmyb


              Lactate threshold tempo run

              heart time 170-180 bpm

              1.54 miles

              13 minutes

              8:26 pace

               

              Hottest temps of the year (82 degrees). Happy with the pace.

              --Jimmy

              Log    PRs

              jimmyb


                Lactate threshold tempo run

                 

                Nice to see a sub 8:00 split at 170 bpm in these hot temperatures.

                Cool

                 

                --Jimmy

                Log    PRs

                  Lactate threshold tempo run

                  heart time 170-180 bpm

                  1.54 miles

                  13 minutes

                  8:26 pace

                   

                  Hottest temps of the year (82 degrees). Happy with the pace.

                  --Jimmy

                   

                   

                  how did you determine heart time for LT runs? I see you are going until it's 180bpm? how did you determine the limit to be 180? just curious. Smile

                   

                   

                  I read your LT run link and again I see evidence that heart rate can behave pretty different for different people.

                   

                  at my LT the HR increases pretty slow, maybe 1bpm per mile or so. definitely not any faster drift than below LT. and even a couple of bpm difference in my LT range will mean a very different thing, ... 1 single bpm increase and I'm past the ventilatory threshold (breathing changes) and I start to feel the load significantly more. so....I'm a pretty good candidate for a conconi test because the change is so spectacular (yes, in pace too). at this point I can still go for a pretty long time (up to 1 hour in a race), it's just painful.

                   

                  let me guess - it is not like this for you? say your LT is still at 176... but you can go to 180 without feeling very different from what you feel at 176 and your breathing doesn't change much between 176 and 180, or, does it?

                  jimmyb


                    how did you determine heart time for LT runs? I see you are going until it's 180bpm? how did you determine the limit to be 180? just curious. Smile

                     

                     

                    I read your LT run link and again I see evidence that heart rate can behave pretty different for different people.

                     

                    at my LT the HR increases pretty slow, maybe 1bpm per mile or so. definitely not any faster drift than below LT. and even a couple of bpm difference in my LT range will mean a very different thing, ... 1 single bpm increase and I'm past the ventilatory threshold (breathing changes) and I start to feel the load significantly more. so....I'm a pretty good candidate for a conconi test because the change is so spectacular (yes, in pace too). at this point I can still go for a pretty long time (up to 1 hour in a race), it's just painful.

                     

                    let me guess - it is not like this for you? say your LT is still at 176... but you can go to 180 without feeling very different from what you feel at 176 and your breathing doesn't change much between 176 and 180, or, does it?

                     

                    As you know, I was tested and my LT is about 176.

                     

                    I've been doing LT runs since 2005, after reading Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas. They gave a zone of 76-88% HRR for the runs. I ran them by miles, not time. I do believe I started in the bottom of the zone, and eventually brought myself to the top by the end of the run (anywhere from 3-5 miles). By 2006,  I was using a zone of 168-180 (80-88% HRR), still running by miles. Almost always having to slow down to stay at 180 in the last mile. Top number was the same, but I don't remember why I chose 168.

                     

                    Last year, I did a bunch of LT runs trying various things like staying in a tight zone of 175-177 for a predetermined amount of time. Then by the end of the year, I thought I'd try using the concept of heart time in these runs as well. There seemed to be a pronounced slow-down (or spike in HR) when I got above 180. When I started up this year, I decided to keep going with it. I chose a zone of 170-180, as it surrounds the LT nicely, allowing for some "warm-up" and going just above to get some lactate flowing. Stopping when I can no longer stay at 180 at the same speed seems to be working just fine so far. My paces are improving.

                     

                    I'm not sure if my breathing changes, as I control it when running that hard--I usually let my body breath how it wants at lower HR's. I breath in a particular rhythm with my steps. But that "load" feeling you talk about---there is a pronounced difference in the feeling of stress in this zone. As soon as I'm to 170 bpm, it feels hard and like I'm racing about a half marathon or so.

                     

                    Again, can you tell me again how you determined your LT?

                     

                    Part of my "spiking" is the temperature (80+ degrees F, 26.6+ degrees C)   combined with my body fat making the body work real hard to keep the core cool. Part of it is stress from the zone.

                     

                    C, try using a 81-88% HRR zone and see what happens. Warm up 20 minutes to MAF, then bring your HR up gradually to 81% in the net 5 minutes, adjust your speed in the next 5 minutes remaining at 81%, then hold that speed. Stop when you can't stay at 88% anymore.

                    See what happens. Might be a fun experiment.

                     

                    --Jimmy

                    Log    PRs

                      thanks for the reply. Smile so 180 is 88% HRR for you then?

                       

                      I determined my LT several ways:

                       

                      -one way is by taking the average HR from 10k race: 193.

                      -another way of determining it is by ventilatory changes: 195.

                      -going by subjective feeling (where feeling of load substantially increases but I'm still steady state. some call it "last steady state"): 195.

                      -and finally, the highest HR where I still feel comfortable enough like I could go forever (confirmed, I went for more than 2 hours and still felt fine, though pace did gradually slow, of course): 192. (meaning this would be the highest HR below LT)

                      -so, I guess my LT is somewhere in the range of 193-195. I like to think of it this way: at 192-193 I'm just below it, and at 195-197 I'm past it. (I don't think it's one single beat anyway, but more like a range, a small "HR zone")

                       


                      as for the HRR 81-88% test: interesting idea Smile if I get around to that I'll let you know (right now I can't fit this in, but sometime later I can try, within a few weeks). I'm curious to see what it would show Smile

                      btw, 193 is HRR 90% for me.

                       

                      looking in my logs, I do have an earlier run a few months back where I did start at 81% (it was at 179=81% after 5-6 mins + previous warmup), and I got to 190 (=88%) after about 1.5 hours later, though, I did speed up the pace a bit halfway. so I dunno what if I didn't. I should try that perhaps Smile btw, weather was pretty cold (45F). so that helped!

                       

                      I had another run a year ago where I again started from 179 (after 15mins of warmup), after 36 minutes of this (even paced) I was at 185 (I ended the workout there). I think it would have been okay for another 30mins or so before it would have got to 190. but I was a lot less fit then. and weather was slightly warmer too.


                      as for breathing: interesting what you say about it. I would go mad trying to set a rhythm to my breathing. I just can't concentrate on breathing too well, because it makes me feel uncomfortable, it makes me feel like I'm going to screw up my breathing somehow. so I let it happen naturally even when I'm at vo2max Smile

                      jimmyb


                        thanks for the reply. Smile so 180 is 88% HRR for you then?

                         

                        I determined my LT several ways:

                         

                        -one way is by taking the average HR from 10k race: 193.

                        -another way of determining it is by ventilatory changes: 195.

                        -going by subjective feeling (where feeling of load substantially increases but I'm still steady state. some call it "last steady state"): 195.

                        -and finally, the highest HR where I still feel comfortable enough like I could go forever (confirmed, I went for more than 2 hours and still felt fine, though pace did gradually slow, of course): 192. (meaning this would be the highest HR below LT)

                        -so, I guess my LT is somewhere in the range of 193-195. I like to think of it this way: at 192-193 I'm just below it, and at 195-197 I'm past it. (I don't think it's one single beat anyway, but more like a range, a small "HR zone")

                         


                        as for the HRR 81-88% test: interesting idea Smile if I get around to that I'll let you know (right now I can't fit this in, but sometime later I can try, within a few weeks). I'm curious to see what it would show Smile

                        btw, 193 is HRR 90% for me.

                         

                        looking in my logs, I do have an earlier run a few months back where I did start at 81% (it was at 179=81% after 5-6 mins + previous warmup), and I got to 190 (=88%) after about 1.5 hours later, though, I did speed up the pace a bit halfway. so I dunno what if I didn't. I should try that perhaps Smile btw, weather was pretty cold (45F). so that helped!

                         

                        I had another run a year ago where I again started from 179 (after 15mins of warmup), after 36 minutes of this (even paced) I was at 185 (I ended the workout there). I think it would have been okay for another 30mins or so before it would have got to 190. but I was a lot less fit then. and weather was slightly warmer too.


                        as for breathing: interesting what you say about it. I would go mad trying to set a rhythm to my breathing. I just can't concentrate on breathing too well, because it makes me feel uncomfortable, it makes me feel like I'm going to screw up my breathing somehow. so I let it happen naturally even when I'm at vo2max Smile

                         

                        88% HRR for me is figured this way ((198-49)x.88)+49=180.1

                         

                        Your LT is most likely not above 88%HRR. Best way to know is to get tested, but generally, if you pass through that zone of Pfitzingers, it will get the job done in terms of the training effect you are looking for when doing LT runs.

                         

                        On breathing. I'm a musician and like rhythmical things. One reason I never listen to music when I run is because it never synchs up with the rhythm of my running--drives the musician in me a bit crazy.

                         

                        --Jimmy

                        Log    PRs

                          88% HRR for me is figured this way ((198-49)x.88)+49=180.1

                           

                          Your LT is most likely not above 88%HRR. Best way to know is to get tested, but generally, if you pass through that zone of Pfitzingers, it will get the job done in terms of the training effect you are looking for when doing LT runs.

                           

                          On breathing. I'm a musician and like rhythmical things. One reason I never listen to music when I run is because it never synchs up with the rhythm of my running--drives the musician in me a bit crazy.

                           

                          --Jimmy

                           

                           

                           

                          why do you say it is not likely it is above 88%?

                          I read somewhere that for some people LT can be at 90% HRR, so it is possible.

                          also, if my LT is not above 88% (190), then LT definition must be redefined because I can keep this effort for well over 1 hour... Surprised

                          of course the catch is that 90% HRR is not anywhere near 90% of vo2max for me Smile I hope to improve on that over time Smile

                           

                          oh and I forgot to say that the conconi test also had my LT at that range (193) I mentioned above.

                          there is another  possibility though - maybe I never pushed maxHR hard enough so I don't actually have my proper maxHR?

                           

                          btw, I just happened to read your very first post in this thread...I didn't read it before. well, that says: "Using the 70-78% HRR zone in the last 1/4 of a run is very hard on the body"

                          I know, I'm a bit of a freak with my HR but that sentence was just really funny. that must be a joke. that is 162-175 for me, and it feels easy no matter where it is in the run, start or end.

                           

                           

                          PS: I like rhythm too but if I try to do that to my breathing in a conscious way (no matter if just sitting here or out there running) I get crazy. maybe same craziness as you feel when you try to listen to music while running Smile

                          jimmyb


                            why do you say it is not likely it is above 88%?

                            I read somewhere that for some people LT can be at 90% HRR, so it is possible.

                            also, if my LT is not above 88% (190), then LT definition must be redefined because I can keep this effort for well over 1 hour... Surprised

                            of course the catch is that 90% HRR is not anywhere near 90% of vo2max for me Smile I hope to improve on that over time Smile

                             

                            oh and I forgot to say that the conconi test also had my LT at that range (193) I mentioned above.

                            there is another  possibility though - maybe I never pushed maxHR hard enough so I don't actually have my proper maxHR?

                             

                            btw, I just happened to read your very first post in this thread...I didn't read it before. well, that says: "Using the 70-78% HRR zone in the last 1/4 of a run is very hard on the body"

                            I know, I'm a bit of a freak with my HR but that sentence was just really funny. that must be a joke. that is 162-175 for me, and it feels easy no matter where it is in the run, start or end.

                             

                             

                            PS: I like rhythm too but if I try to do that to my breathing in a conscious way (no matter if just sitting here or out there running) I get crazy. maybe same craziness as you feel when you try to listen to music while running Smile

                             

                            Because as far as anything I've read, it is very rare for it to be any closer than 90% MHR (179 for me). You might be one of the rare ones.

                             

                            It is possible you don't have the right MHR. When I first started HR training, I used Hadd's track test for MHR and got a 184 or so. Well, when I finally wore the HRM in a race, I got it up to 198ish. That's a big difference. I think to get close, you have to warm-up for awhile, then rn hard for awhile, then sprint as hard as you can and not let up until you have to stop or the HR stops rising. I believe some people either are not warmed up enough, or stop the test too soon because of the discomfort. Not saying this is the case with you.

                             

                            My comment about that zone of 71-78 (154-165)  is not a joke. Running in the that zone is hard on my body, it's mostly anaerobic in terms of fuel, and it feels hard. I always need more recovery after runs at those HR's than runs below that zone, or under MAF. I eventually have to stop them because I start to get a bit taxed. Then again, I am now 50 years old, and started when I was 42 and I am not recovering, and have never recovered, like a 25 year old. DId I just write that I am now 50 years old? Yup, I just wrote I am now 50 years old. Can't be. I JUST CAN'T BE! Please make it stop. Cool

                             

                            -Jimmy

                             

                            p.s. My fuel usage at 165 is aprox 61%sugar/39% fat.

                            Log    PRs

                               

                              My comment about that zone of 71-78 (154-165)  is not a joke. Running in the that zone is hard on my body, it's mostly anaerobic in terms of fuel, and it feels hard. I always need more recovery after runs at those HR's than runs below that zone, or under MAF. I eventually have to stop them because I start to get a bit taxed. Then again, I am now 50 years old, and started when I was 42 and I am not recovering, and have never recovered, like a 25 year old.

                               

                               

                               

                               

                                   Being a 50+ runner myself, I strongly support what Jimmy states. An analysis can be made numerically as well; 78% HRR, for my current HR 

                                   values is approximately 20% above my MAF HR; 150 to 125.

                                   I was recording resting HR 5 beats lower when I was 20. With an approximation of 15 beats of max HR loss in 30+ years, 20 yo %78 HRR is

                                   nearly identical to MAF HR;  160 to 160.

                               

                                  I can say that margin for error gets smaller as we age. Sad

                                   

                              rarian


                                I first became aware of the term 'tempo' runs when I became the owner of Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning in late 2004 but it's only been in the last six months that I came to understand his prescription for doing 'tempo' runs.  In multiple places through the book he states the tempo run pace for faster runners is their half-marathon pace and that slower runners should use their 15km race pace.  But there is only one place in my edition where he first introduces the concept of tempo runs (Ch 2, p22) that he states "Lactate threshold training should be run at close to the pace that you could currently race for 1 hour."  On another forum I've seen Rudolph post the same thing, emphasising the '60 minutes race pace'. 

                                When I first noticed this late last year was when I started an experiment I reported on here on another thread, doing a thirty minute run at tempo pace, plus warm-up and cool-down, incrementing the treadmill speed each week that I succeeded at that pace.  What I have noticed is that I could always do 20 minutes at incremented tempo pace but sometimes opted off that pace at 22 or 25 minutes; in which case the next week I used that same pace until I succeeded at 30 minutes. 

                                During the runs I record HR but take no notice of it.  It seems that as long as my breathing keeps its usual rhythm I can continue, when that rhythm falters is when I opt off the pace.

                                30-40 minute continuous runs are Pfitzinger's prescription for tempo runs as marathon training; as training for shorter distances he accepts 'cruise intervals' at the same pace.

                                My HR average for the last 20 minutes at the tempo pace is always 158 (approx 88% HRR), usually 154 drifting to 162. 
                                Back in 2004 I saw 183 once and assume that was my HRmax, then my RHR was probably 55 thus HRR was 128.
                                Recently the highest I have seen in the last 12 months is 168, my HRM predicts 168 as max. I expect max is a little higher in low 170s.  Last year, after MAFFing for 9 months my RHR dropped to 45; currently RHR is in high 40s.
                                So HRR now is somewhere 123-28.

                                 

                                Jimmy, I'm nine years older than you; it doesn't stop!