Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 6014 times)

    Ace, Ouch. I once had something very similar. It wasn't the knee, but more like the top of the calf to the side nearish the knee. I rested a bit, then Gallow-trained for a few weeks and it was better. I kept up my mileage but took a walk break every 5 minutes for a minute. It kept the pain away. I kept building up the time between breaks and finally started running everything again. This exercise can really help with this: Click Do very, very, VERY slowly. I also got religious about warm-up and cooldown. P.S. Are you a calf stretcher? If so, you might consider not stretching them anymore. Can do some people more harm than good. --Jimmy
    Thanks for the knee strengthening exercise. I typically do at least a half-mile walk before and after runs, sometimes more afterward. I can always do a little more. I used the run-walk technique coming back from other injuries, but this is my first knee injury so I'm glad to see it worked for you. I do calf stretches sometimes, but I try to keep them light. I have a weird thing when often I will have a horrible pain in my right shin the first mile or two of a run that loosens up and goes away eventually. If I start getting this pain and stop and do 30 seconds of calf/soleus stretches--POOF--it goes away. I found I can pre-empt this shin pain with some light stretching after my walk warmup. So- that's why I do a little calf stretching. Right now, I can do the soleus-type wall pushup stretches no problem, but the wall pushup that stretches the upper portion of the calf muscle would hurt like hell if I attempted it. Hamstring stretches are bad news right now as well. I'm not sure if I should bag the marathon idea or not. I guess I will take it one day at a time and see what happens. I'd rather be fully prepared and 99% healthy to attempt a marathon. However, I am married to a half-human/half-machine who did 75% of her training for her first marathon on an elliptical (stress fracture), only had a year's running experience, and went out and ran a 3:48 in her first one.
      I'm not sure if I should bag the marathon idea or not. I guess I will take it one day at a time and see what happens. I'd rather be fully prepared and 99% healthy to attempt a marathon. However, I am married to a half-human/half-machine who did 75% of her training for her first marathon on an elliptical (stress fracture), only had a year's running experience, and went out and ran a 3:48 in her first one.
      Ace, Sounds to me like you are well ahead of the program in training. You can probably take a week off to rest it, and not lose much at all. You've already run at least one 20, and sounds like you're on-pace for a great time. Take the time off, rest it, and come back slowly. All under MAF, etc. Just my humble opinion. I've not had too many running injuries. Aikido based injuries, plenty! Also, icing it by putting the ice in a glass, with vodka, gin, etc. always works great.
        Nice half Jimmy & 20-miler Greg. I did 17.4 miles on Saturday afternoon. I planned on 18 and this was my first long run where I did not try to stay under MAF. My recovery jog planned for Sunday would put me over 50 miles/week for the first time, but I was bitten (hopefully not too hard) by the injury bug. Backing up for a minute, I've complained on this forum a little about some tightness behind my left knee- maybe a month ago. When I pushed around with my fingers, the small area of pain was actually at the very top of my calf, not really the knee. I iced it for a few days and it went away. In the past month, I've felt it a little from time-to-time during runs. It was a little worse last weekend when I did 17, but I took a recovery day and and off day after that and felt fine on Tuesday. So, I was running Saturday and I felt the back of knee issue again towards the later miles. It was getting uncomfortable around mile 15.5, and it seemed like my left calf was tightening up. So, I stopped to do a brief light calf stretch. Well, that turned out to be a big mistake as the stretch caused my entire calf to lock up/cramp/spasm. I still had 2.5 miles to get to my car, and I had promised to take my kids somewhere that evening and did not have time to walk to the car and make it on time. So, I broke the rule about running through pain and did a limp-jog for another few miles until I was within 5-10 minutes walking time to my car. I had pain just walking around Saturday evening and most of Sunday, especially up and down stairs. The back of my knee swollen- not horribly, but if you feel the left knee versus the right there is definetely some swelling. My self diagnosis is some tendonitis/damage to the posterior cruciate ligament based on the area that it swollen. However, there really is no pain in the swollen area, but rather just at the top of my calf muscle (where this ligament connects to the lower leg?). I iced a lot yesterday, which seemed to help. I was able to do 20 minutes of elliptical pain free, but I had to crouch a little while on the elliptical to avoid the pain of fuilly straightening my left leg. From what I have read, the posterior cruciate ligament is typically damaged by a hyperextension. I don't know if I did that in the past month (stepping in a pothole or something) or if it a overuse/repeated impact issue. I guess it could also be damaged calf muscle issue, but I am not sure why the entire posterior cruciate ligament would be swollen if that was the case. However, if it was just the posterior cruciate ligament, I don't know why my entire calf locked up on me Saturday. I am going to do the ice/ibuprofin/light elliptical therapy for now and see what happens. I won't attempt to run again until I can walk, including up/down stairs, without pain. Back to my run- I wanted to keep my pace in the 9:30-10:30 range, figured my HR would be around the 150-165 range and would not let my HR get much above 170. I did not have an exact pace plan (i.e. breaking the run into quarters) since I was doing a big hill in the middle of the run. I ended up at a 10:04 pace for the run with an average HR of 161. http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/5036823
        My calf cramped up during a duathlon (on the bike) last summer. I took me a couple minutes before I could continue. After icing it twice a day for a few days I was good to go. Tight calves may be the cause of this. I've had that problem since high school. Stretching has never worked for me. About a year ago, I discovered the foam roller. It works wonders for my calves, quads, IT band, etc. I use it 2-3 times/ wk as a preventative measure. It hurts like hell at first, but that means it's working! I also self massage the tight areas of my calves.
        jimmyb


          Thanks for the knee strengthening exercise. I typically do at least a half-mile walk before and after runs, sometimes more afterward. I can always do a little more. I used the run-walk technique coming back from other injuries, but this is my first knee injury so I'm glad to see it worked for you. I do calf stretches sometimes, but I try to keep them light. I have a weird thing when often I will have a horrible pain in my right shin the first mile or two of a run that loosens up and goes away eventually. If I start getting this pain and stop and do 30 seconds of calf/soleus stretches--POOF--it goes away. I found I can pre-empt this shin pain with some light stretching after my walk warmup. So- that's why I do a little calf stretching. Right now, I can do the soleus-type wall pushup stretches no problem, but the wall pushup that stretches the upper portion of the calf muscle would hurt like hell if I attempted it. Hamstring stretches are bad news right now as well. I'm not sure if I should bag the marathon idea or not. I guess I will take it one day at a time and see what happens. I'd rather be fully prepared and 99% healthy to attempt a marathon. However, I am married to a half-human/half-machine who did 75% of her training for her first marathon on an elliptical (stress fracture), only had a year's running experience, and went out and ran a 3:48 in her first one.
          That exercise will strengthen and loosen the shins, calves, and ankles. Also, try balancing on one foot, then close your eyes--open them if your falling, then close again. This will also strengthen the lower leg, ankles, feet, shins. One more thing, I kept ALL runs MAF runs while rehabbing. You are obviously overstressing your body with too much training load. Back off. Ask yourself these questions: How long are you taking between long runs (18+)? (2-3 weeks between is advisable, 3 if you're a beginner) Have you built volume too quickly? (faster than 5-10%, 5-7% for a beginner is advisable)) Are you following every hard day with an easy day at MAF or rest? (so important) Are you cutting back 20% or more every 3rd-4th week? (more is advisable for beginners) The Pfitzinger progression long runs might be too much for you right now. Mental side ( i don't expect you to reply to these , keep it private): Is "success" weighing on your mind? Are you afraid to fail? (in your first marathon, it is so important to make finishing the goal, instead of a certain time. Wanting to achieve a time too badly can sometimes make us go too hard too fast too soon) If so, take the pressure off yourself. I realized this during my first marathon. I knew long before I hit the wall that I wouldn't achieve my goal, and I relaxed for the first time in months and started to have a better time. The end was tough, but at least I let myself off the hook, and was ecstatic to just finish--I knew then that should have been my goal all along. None of this may apply to you, of course. It's just that I've seen all this in me in my meager 5 years of running. Take care. --Jimmy

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            That exercise will strengthen and loosen the shins, calves, and ankles. Also, try balancing on one foot, then close your eyes--open them if your falling, then close again. This will also strengthen the lower leg, ankles, feet, shins. One more thing, I kept ALL runs MAF runs while rehabbing. You are obviously overstressing your body with too much training load. Back off. Ask yourself these questions: How long are you taking between long runs (18+)? (2-3 weeks between is advisable, 3 if you're a beginner) Have you built volume too quickly? (faster than 5-10%, 5-7% for a beginner is advisable)) Are you following every hard day with an easy day at MAF or rest? (so important) Are you cutting back 20% or more every 3rd-4th week? (more is advisable for beginners) The Pfitzinger progression long runs might be too much for you right now. Mental side ( i don't expect you to reply to these , keep it private): Is "success" weighing on your mind? Are you afraid to fail? (in your first marathon, it is so important to make finishing the goal, instead of a certain time. Wanting to achieve a time too badly can sometimes make us go too hard too fast too soon) If so, take the pressure off yourself. I realized this during my first marathon. I knew long before I hit the wall that I wouldn't achieve my goal, and I relaxed for the first time in months and started to have a better time. The end was tough, but at least I let myself off the hook, and was ecstatic to just finish--I knew then that should have been my goal all along. None of this may apply to you, of course. It's just that I've seen all this in me in my meager 5 years of running. Take care. --Jimmy
            I have a balance board I can break out for the one-foot eyes closed thing as well. Yes- I will do all MAF of course. I will be thrilled when I can run slow w/o pain. As far as training load- I am having the knee issues on long runs. I don't know if my problem is overall miles, long run miles or the hillier routes I am running on my long runs (probably a combo). Answers to your questions: How long are you taking between long runs (18+)? (2-3 weeks between is advisable, 3 if you're a beginner) My long runs the past 8 weeks have been 16, 17, 18.5, 16 (first time I felt the back of knee problem), 9, 20, 17, 17.5 (last one was supposed to be 18). So yeah, maybe I should add a 12 miler every 3rd week. Have you built volume too quickly? (faster than 5-10%, 5-7% for a beginner is advisable)) I have built from 30 miles to 46 miles in 12 weeks, so that's about 4.4% a week on average. Are you following every hard day with an easy day at MAF or rest? (so important) YES! Are you cutting back 20% or more every 3rd-4th week? (more is advisable for beginners) I did not cut back at all during December/January (Team Oregon no cutback schedule). My first cutback week was the first week in February (22% cutback), and this week I was planning a cutback (25%, which may turn into 100%) Is "success" weighing on your mind? Are you afraid to fail? (in your first marathon, it is so important to make finishing the goal, instead of a certain time. Wanting to achieve a time too badly can sometimes make us go too hard too fast too soon. I don't mind replying to this one. My biggest fear is a DNF. My second biggest fear is finishing but having to walk the last 6+ miles. Those are the reasons I wanted to do MAF-type training and build mileage. I am honestly fine with running whatever time I am capable of for this marathon. Even though would be my first marathon, I know lots of first time marathoners (before and after their first one) and have a decent understanding that the first one does not usually pan out as predicted.
              CfKid: No doubt I will be fine with a week off. Luckily I have nearly perfected the art of tendonitis-type injury comebacks. But, I could be back to normal in a few days or it might take weeks. I am just going to take it a day at a time and see where I land. I rather do the icing you suggested at a post-marathon celebration Smile Bdags: My foam roller is one of my best friends, too. I just started using it on my calf muscles in the past month. Thanks for the post and I will definetely make a point to use it 2-3 times/week instead of sporadically like I have been.
              jimmyb


                I have a balance board I can break out for the one-foot eyes closed thing as well. Yes- I will do all MAF of course. I will be thrilled when I can run slow w/o pain. As far as training load- I am having the knee issues on long runs. I don't know if my problem is overall miles, long run miles or the hillier routes I am running on my long runs (probably a combo). My long runs the past 8 weeks have been 16, 17, 18.5, 16 (first time I felt the back of knee problem), 9, 20, 17, 17.5 (last one was supposed to be 18). So yeah, maybe I should add a 12 miler every 3rd week. .
                For a 46 mile per week base, that might be a bit much. There is a school of thought that your long runs should be no longer than a 1/3 of your total base mileage, and some even suggest 25%. It takes the normal runner at least 2-3 weeks to recover from a 20-miler (the newer you are, the longer it takes). The pattern you are using is way beyond your current development and base. With your low base mileage, I would suggest 20-13-7-20-13-7. That pattern. It gives you the three weeks you need. Perhaps make every third week a cutback. You're going to do fine at the marathon. The 20 milers will have trained your mind and endurance. It all comes down to getting the right pace, and we'll help you get that! I'll do whatever I can for you in that department. Plus you are armed with the knowledge of no carbs before the race! That probably does a lot of beginners in from the gitgo. Repair! Recover! --Jimmy

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                Master of Inconsistency

                  Ace , Sorry to hear about your injury ,good thing you were ahead of schedule . I think you'll come back quickly as you are doing what is needed . My left knee is bugging me a bit also so I'll have to follow Jimmy's Sage advice myself. Sincerely hoping you heal quickly, Greg

                  Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !

                    Ace , Sorry to hear about your injury ,good thing you were ahead of schedule . I think you'll come back quickly as you are doing what is needed . My left knee is bugging me a bit also so I'll have to follow Jimmy's Sage advice myself. Sincerely hoping you heal quickly, Greg
                    Thanks for the wishes. I even mentioned last week that my body was telling me I needed a down week. I decided to see how the beginning of my run this past Tuesday went before deciding what I would do. I knew from my first mile that my Tuesday run would be my best run yet, so I went ahead thinking I was recovered from my knee issue and fatigue and would go ahead with my Pfitz 50 mile week. Also, I was able to zap my back-of-knee problem a month ago with a few days of icing. So I was cocky in the regard that I thought I could just ice the knee/calf pain when it came back last week instead of doing the right thing and scheduling a down week. So- don't make the mistake I did. Recover from your 20-miler even if you don't feel like you need to, and take a down week to repair your knee no matter how minor it seems.
                      All of this injury talk definitely has me thinking. I'm contemplating a half-marathon on June 7th. I have 15 weeks. I was about to ask for advice as to when and if I should start doing some of these faster runs given my low base milage. I'm only at 32 miles/wk, but could easily be at 40 within 2 months. Maybe that's not enough to support speed work? I'll have to think about it. Fortunately, this is a smaller race. I can register the day of the race.
                      lowgear1


                      Max McMaffelow Esq.

                        All of this injury talk definitely has me thinking. I'm contemplating a half-marathon on June 7th. I have 15 weeks. I was about to ask for advice as to when and if I should start doing some of these faster runs given my low base milage. I'm only at 32 miles/wk, but could easily be at 40 within 2 months. Maybe that's not enough to support speed work? I'll have to think about it. Fortunately, this is a smaller race. I can register the day of the race.
                        Bdags, Your observations are much like mine. I'm probably at a point where I could transition to some anaerobic stuff, but being a rank noob, i'm a little nervous, especially with the recent injury talk. I imagine a cautious/conservative approach would be no problem, but i'll more likely stay hunkered down with pure maffing for now. I wish you the best with your decision. LG1 Sloe,ripe
                        ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                        Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                        ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)


                        Master of Inconsistency

                          Bdags, There is nothing to fear,I am here to make your mistakes for you ! Wink Just train intelligently and you'll have no problem. 15 weeks is plenty of time to ready yourself for your half. Heck you are already running 10 milers and your pace at Maf is looking real good. Take a look at my last week's training for what not to do. BTW : I walked 2 miles today without any discomfort so I think I dodged a bullet and will chalk it up to experience. Good Luck with your Training , Greg

                          Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !

                            Lowgear & Greg, I agree. When in doubt, train conservatively. I am going to try to pick up the speed a bit in a couple months, but nothing too adventurous. Fortunately, I don't have to register months in advance for this one. I can monitor the situation up until race day. The biggest concern I have is "how will my body react to 13.1 8:00-8:30 minute miles!" I think the 10 miler I did in October (done on very little milage) zapped all of my aerobic fitness for at least two months. Greg, Take care of the knee!
                            jimmyb


                              Bdags, There is nothing to fear,I am here to make your mistakes for you ! Wink Just train intelligently and you'll have no problem. 15 weeks is plenty of time to ready yourself for your half. Heck you are already running 10 milers and your pace at Maf is looking real good. Take a look at my last week's training for what not to do. BTW : I walked 2 miles today without any discomfort so I think I dodged a bullet and will chalk it up to experience. Good Luck with your Training , Greg
                              I think you should change your avatar to a picture of health. A visual affirmation of the future you wish to create. Plus, you're ruining my appetite for peas, as I keep thinking of your knees. I'm picking them out of my Progresso Minestrone soup as I write. Let my two intersecting squiggly lines be the shining example of the positive avatar. It affirms so many good things, it's overwhelming. --Jimmy

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                              Master of Inconsistency

                                Hope this removes the horrid image for your memory Jimmy. Big grin

                                Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !