Anyone got some really good stuff I guess I really really don't understand sometimes, and I am just trying to figure some stuff related to speed out. Last Thursday (RE: my Weds night track work and longish run) I heard - great job - nice intervals - nice run - I'll never run that fast - Tall saying "your right Tim" - and so on. Then I heard - do you have enough base miles to be doing that yet (how many base miles are enough, really?) - be careful that was unwise – you are going to injure yourself (nope, not) - basically...what the hell were ya thinking? OK, pull up a seat if you are so inclined....recliner, get it...ok lame This bugged me so much, I called my high school track coach last night and wanted his opinion about my workouts and training for a Marathon....he was / is a great runner, who has BQ more times than I can imagine. In short, I gave him EVERY detailed description of my training and last Weds workout. Ribs, I have to admit on the home front...every, I mean every single person I have told about the mid week long run with speed work, gives me the "deer in the headlight look". My high school coach...his name is Steve said, hummm that is really different. (he has been coaching now for 41 years) As far as my paces he said...could you have done more at that pace, I said yes I could coach. He then said...do you remember what I used to tell you and all the runners while training for racing season? I said yes coach....you used to say "pay now, or later"....later sucks as you won't reach you potential. I totally understood what he said then, and what that means now. Basically he meant....the hard, the very hard work you put in now, makes race day a lot easier. He personally was a little disappointed in that I didn't run my repeats a little quicker...and being more spent afterwords. But he doesn't quite understand the concept of me having to run home to make a mid week long run either. I am not condemning the workouts Ribs had for me last year at all...heck, I am doing the exact same thing with good results now. You all know I had to take time off because of my multiple injuries...almost 3 months. Honestly, I thought I was doomed with AT issues, but this is NOT the case as my legs and feet feel perfect. I really thought I would not recover from this injury but did...thanks again Twocat with your valuable help. Another thing, while I was training for Triathlons and bike races. Cycling was very very hard on Tues and Thurs nights with the best of the best in my area. These workouts were so hard, some guys said their heart were ready to explode out of their chests...me included and loved / love that feeling of reaching close to max HR many times over in one workout (no, I am not doing that now) OK, is running a weight bearing workout where a person can't be Anaerobic more often while training??? - but cycling it's ok...is this a HR issue, or running issue. I was / am a very fast cyclist, and really don't understand speed work when compared to running. My speed work on my track night is supposed to be controlled and feel "somewhat" easy....it does, what else am I supposed to do? Ribs says, run a 5K and we can re-calculate your speed work, I understand that but...if I can run 5:00 something pace now (short distance I know) 6:30 must seem reasonable for repeats like I am doing...right? I am on the same schedule as my last Marathon attempt ...albeit a little rushed. It is time for speed work as I am 5 weeks away from taper...that was, and is the plan (and pain free BTW) But I still love the track...while others don't understand. As Ribs pointed out the other day...some run faster repeats and take a longer recovery. Some run slower with a faster recovery...which seems best to him. But....I do both and do it well (that's only partly why I am writing this for) As Holly has pointed out, I seemed to have came back quick. And seems like I didn't lose as much fitness as I thought I would...what do I say? It's just that sometimes I think I get misunderstood as being some wild - reckless - crazy out of control runner that is wailing myself around the track like a Tasmanian devil. If you could only witness my fast track work, you would see a very controlled runner that has good running form. And to be honest - at the paces I am running - I really don't need the 200 meter recoveries because I am not laboring that much. Even my Middle School coach - that I said was at the track too - commented to me about how good and controlled I looked running my repeats (he said sheesh, you were not really breathing that hard when you finished the repeat) Just want people to know that I am not a fool really... but do love a good - honest - hard workout (and maybe a crazy speed thrown in the mix a time or two for pleasure Your RA Friend, TimBo

OK. I'll bite. About your workout: In itself, it seems like a good workout. I did intervals myself that night (8 x 1200's around 6:45 m/m) What I would question is the value of over-doing extremely anaerobic workouts for marathon training. At our level, I don't consider marathons to be anaerobic events, 'cept maybe if you have it in you to sprint the last mile or so. Ribs made an earlier comment about the value of slower intervals w/ less recovery, and noted that they are more effective than faster repeats w/ more recovery. I'm inclined to agree to agree with that. But what I REALLY believe is the "we are all an experiment of one" school of thought. If faster midweek workouts are good for your running, then you should continue to do them. I would love to get back into doing shorter, faster intervals, but I'm going to wait until after my marathon (in three weeks) before I think about them. Tallrunner has said that he's going to stop marathon training and concentrate on shorter distances for a while, so I'm sure he'll be doing faster interval work. But, if you are training for a marathon, I don't think you should take too much stock in a 1/2 mile PR...you should worry about being able to run over 50 times that far. It's obvious that you have great leg speed, Tim, and that certainly is to your advantage. But, as Ribs has noted, you need speed, stamina and endurance for marathons. One out of three isn't going to cut it. Now, about cycling: it's much, much easier to do anaerobic workouts on a bike than while running. While both sports involve your legs, they're apples-and-oranges. I did notice a big improvement in my aerobic fitness when I was doing lots of biking (and cycling intervals or hill workouts). Once I started running more, my 5k times actually slowed for a bit even though I was running more.....but I wasn't doing the anaerobic workouts; I was running base miles. Cycling's much less stressful to your body. Much, much less: so you can (theoretically) pack in more anaerobic workouts in a training cycle. So. To sum up: do what works for you. I do envy the time you have to train, and how you put it to use. Walt.

Have fun storming the castle! You will never know if it does/doesn't work until you try it and see. And as noted, everybody is different. If you meet your goals, congrats. If you don't, reevaluate and go from there. I'd say that many people are concerned for you because 1) you were recently injured and 2) while you were injured, you posted A LOT about how much it sucked to be injured. Folks don't want to you to go through that again. But, you're you and we're not you. The workouts you are doing... at least the ones you post about... are not typical marathon-focused workouts according to some of the folks here, at least based on how you write about them. If they work, congrats. Mind you, I'm the guy who ran 105 marathons in two years. People tell me all the time that I'm not doing it right. Comes down to my goals and what I know about myself. Everybody is different. Have fun with it. What I learned: If I choose to train somewhat atypically and post in public about it, people will comment on it and the comments may not mesh with what I'm doing. Good luck, sincerely. You will probably beat me soundly at Seattle rnr and that's cool. If you make your goal, that's awesome. Edited to add: there are different versions of 'pay now or pay later'. You hammer lots of your workouts now.... and that does not not not guarantee you'll have the best race day ever. Avoid being a 'workout wonder' and leaving your awesomest miles on the track.

The heart doesn't know whether we are running - cycling - having sex . . ...right.

if that's what happens from trainin' so much, maybe you could use a couple of relaxing taper days after all with someon. . .I mean someplace soft and comfortable.

Yes, I am nuts and I really know whats best for me. But others don't seem to understand...which I shouldn't worry about I know.

Seems like you've already decided and answered your own question. No need to add anything else. Good luck.

WOW...wow again. This is a lot to comment on right now...late and I have a "wave run" to run in the am. I will say though, I was the high school track kid that said coach "can we run one or two more at that pace...or quicker" The others runners laying on their backs would look at me and think...WTF, are you nuts. (I was hurting as much as them BTW) Yes, I am nuts and I really know whats best for me. But others don't seem to understand...which I shouldn't worry about I know. OK, this is what I don't get. The heart doesn't know whether we are running - cycling - having sex as far as that is concerned...right. Why is being anaerobic cycling 2 times a week ok, but heavens forbid running is not...I don't get it...that hard work cycling made me damn fast. Yes, I have been told many many times...why the fast track work training for a Marathon...I really don't know myself...but it is a plan I am following, and seems to work I guess. Tall, you my Fren are a animal with your workouts....I wanna be like you. I am, but a little slower...which is besides the point. Thanks guys...you ALL rock, seriously rock. I have thought though, if Marathons is my main goal right now...shouldn't I be running more MP miles, really! Glad I am NOT the only nutty one here. TimBo

You are definitely someone who could benefit by running those track workouts on the slow end of the range (if you're goal is a fast marathon). Look at how out of whack your 5K and 1/2 Mar times are! 19:26 for 5K and 1:38 for 1/2M? You should be able run a 1/2M in 1:30 or so. That says you are short on endurance and stamina. For this you just need more mileage. I'm probably the opposite of you - no speed, all endurance. My best 5K last year was a 18:58 yet I was able to run a 1:24 1/2 and a 2:55 marathon. I typically ran 6X1600m repeats with 200m jog recoveries at 6:45 pace last year. Could I have dropped down in repeat distance, dropped the pace to 6min/mile or lower, with full recovery? Yes, but my goal was to get faster at the marathon, not the 5K and under. I do some biking as well - I can bike for 20 miles at a very decent effort and the next day my legs don't feel ANY effects from that at all, not even a little bit. Running's a different game, you go anaerobic running that means you are laying down a serious pounding on your legs. It ain't your cardiovascular system that needs to recover from a hard running effort it's your legs. Good luck and keep your ultimate running goal in mind when scheduling workouts. MTA: Is your goal a marathon? I just assumed it was (sorry)! If it's shorter than 1/2 Mar then disregard pacing strategy above!

Yes, Marathon is my major goal right now...the only thing I think about actually. Which brings me to this point: why fast track work at all, when my MP is 7:50 something. I guess I struggle because I love fast track work, and love the feeling of flying around the track...and I do have a planned pace in mind. But as I am running around the track I think...I am not going to run a Marathon this fast at all. It's a love hate relationship it seems...I love both. As far as my 5K time vs my 1/2 M time. I raced a 5k, where as my best 1/2 M was a training run, not a race being pushed at all.....good by myself. Ribs plan is a good one - Nancy knows - but I think I need more MP miles during my workouts...especially getting closer to the Seattle Marathon. Geez again, as my high school coach said. Track training is to be all out...it's NOT tempo work. But work where you want to puke during and after...I love that. But where does THAT come into play while training for 26.2 miles I ask. Fast track work - slower track work...I don't get it...but trying. It's like showing up at our Res rides on Tues and Thurs cycling...everyone knows what to expect. These rides are very hard and I got really fast competing with others...if they were slow causual rides, I would not show. Look, I am only talking about the one or two days a week we get to "let it loose" Is letting it loose supposed to be easy...or hard...that's all. I still think and believe the heart does not know whether we are running or cycling...or lol. "slow is the new fast" hummm, gotta be careful with that one. I believe if a person wants to be faster...a person must run faster. But I really do understand the concept that most of our runs should be at slower pace. If you look at my log, you will see a whole lot more of recovery paced miles than last year...hands down. Trying to do the right thing, Tim

Hi Tim, Just from looking at your picture and reading about your HS background and your bike racing, I think the issue isn't speed but strength. I'm old school like Ribs, a Lydiard disciple, and can only speak from my experience. When I was younger I ran my marathons off of 60 - 70 mile weeks with NO speed work unless you consider full-court basketball as an interval workout. But my runs were all steady not slow. From 10 miles and less I ran faster than MP and for 20+ I ran MP plus 30 sec. Also I was never lighter than 160 lbs. @ 6'1", a relatively large guy and my marathons were mostly in the 3 - 3:20 range. What I saying is that maybe you should look at the pace you run your regular runs. It was all strength running for me. Sometimes I did doubles to get my weekly miles up, but once I went into the >80 mpw category, I broke down. Another thing I did was frequent racing, like every 2nd or 3rd week. Come to think of it now, that's maybe why I didn't need to do speed sessions. There's nothing like racing and full-court basketball. Plus I got my plyometric workouts from all the jumping and lateral movements. For me, volume trumps speed because as one pumps up the volume, one will see a gain in speed automatically (assuming you're running Long Steady Distance, not Long Slow Distance. Alex (just my humble opinion)