The information that Perchcreek and Byll has given us on wave run is so good that I decided to start a new thread so we can all benefit from it more. I can't wait to read Rib's response.
Anyway, here is byll's response in yesterday's thread.
Enough people asked me to post my Wave run thoughts that I've decided to go ahead and do so. I have donned my Flame Retardant Suit so Flame away as you wish!
But I am going to veer only slightly off topic and talk mostly about Tempo runs - in my opinion a Wave run is just a variation on a Tempo run anyway. Sorry for being so wordy and getting a little off track with the following. But a background is needed to understand how Wave runs and other Tempo runs fit into the overall training plan.
Most training program are structured as follows, with some variations both in length of time and individual needs/desires/weaknesses/preferences:
Phase 1 - Base Building/Endurance: Usually a 8 to 12 week period of time where the focus is on building up the daily/weekly/monthly mileage and adding to the runner's endurance. Pace is sorta irrelevant here. Just get the miles in. Some runners stay in this phase for many months (i.e. when just starting out or resuming after an extended layoff or just because you want to maximize your aerobic development) If one were looking at HR, they might want to keep their HR down to 70% of max. HR, if not lower. Conversational/Easy pace runs.
Phase 2 - Strength Building/Stamina: Usually a 4 to 8 week period of time where faster/harder paces are added to a number of the weekly workouts. Often Hill work and/or Tempo runs are added here to build up the strength and stamina - the ability to hold a strong pace for many miles and when tired. This is the phase where Tempo runs (and Wave runs) come into play. When running the harder workouts during this phase, one might shoot for their HR being up in the 75% to 85% range while doing the harder bits. Comfortably Hard runs.
Phase 3 - Race Readiness/Sharpening/Speed: Usually no more than 4 weeks, situated right before Taper begins. This is where you (might) add some anaerobic (aka VO2 max) workouts - in the form of shorter races and/or speed work on the track, MP runs, repeats/intervals, to peak for your Goal race. One has to be careful here as there is a limit to how much anaerobic work one can handle, and injuries are more likely now, due both to the long training you've done to get to this point and due to the speed workouts themselves. Anaerobic workouts will tear you down if done too hard or too often. Remember, you want to Peak for your Goal Race, not Peak too early and go downhill from there. During speedwork and/or races, the HR could go up into the 90% to 95% range. Hard runs.
Phase 4 - Taper: Easing off the mileage, while keeping the quality, allowing the body, mind, and legs to get stronger (and healed up if necessary) by resting more and more up till race day.
Tempo runs have become a staple of the strength/stamina building for many Coaches mainly and simply because they Work! Want to run a good Marathon? Run a bunch of Tempos and Fast Finish LR's! Tempo miles (and hill work) build Strength/Stamina and help push out the Lactate Threshold - all of which lead to stronger efforts in races when the legs (and everything else!) get tired.
Most people define Tempo pace as being anywhere from 10K pace (aka Short Tempo pace) and Half Marathon pace (aka Long Tempo pace). Comfortably Hard. And most people limit Tempo runs to a max. of 4 or 5 or 6 miles; typically up to about 40 minutes total or so. But if one was to go out and run a 5 mile Tempo run at, say, 10K pace after having done nothing but easy runs for weeks/months, they are asking for trouble; soreness, aches and pains at least and injuries at worst. Like anything else, you need to ease into them.
And that's where Fartleks and Wave runs come in. Tinman prescribed weeks and weeks of ever increasing Fartleks to my Columbus 2009 training plan. I had no idea what they were for, but I just kept doing them. He started me out with 400 meter repeats with 2 minute recoveries and over time pushed them out to 800, then 1000, then 1200, then mile repeats - all at 10K pace, no faster. The 10K pace makes this a Tempo Interval workout (Fartleks, Mass, or CV in Tinman-speak) as opposed to the harder and faster repeats you might do at these distances and intervals during the Race Readiness/Sharpening phase. Eventually I noticed that the total number of minutes that I ran at Tempo pace was the generally the same (though they did increase somewhat) while increasing my Tempo repeat distance and reducing the number of those repeats. They always seemed to add up to about 40 minutes total.
A Wave run, in my opinion, is nothing more than another Tempo run variation where you run at 10K or HM pace during the "On" miles and you run EZ pace during the "Off" miles; alternating them after a suitable warm up distance. The beauty of a Wave run is that you get a great Tempo workout within a medium long run (MLR ) or long run (LR) because the "Off" miles give you a sufficient recovery period to be able to both finish all the "On" miles and finish off the overall total miles of the run.
A Fast Finish LR is similar, but here you run a long ways then try to finish off the last 4 to 6 miles at a faster pace, where you're already very tired from the overall number of miles you've run to get to that point - great preparation and practice for that tough, last 10K miles of a Marathon.
Last but not least, do no more than 2 harder workouts each week. 3 perhaps if you're younger or in really, really great shape. All other days are run at no more than Easy or recovery pace.
Okay. I'm ready. Bring on the Flame Throwers!
Bill
"Champions are everywhere; all you need is to train them properly..." ~Arthur Lydiard
The Half Marathon Program that I will begin following in August is from Runners' World, and it includes one Long Run that it calls an "LR Stamina". I may have modified it slightly, but I'm supposed to run 15 miles with 3 to 6 of the miles in the middle at my targetted Half Marathon Pace (7:15/mi). I have to admit that this sounds very challenging at this stage of the game, since I just did a 15 miler 2 Saturdays ago at about 8:15 to 8:20 pace, and I was quite tested on the 13th through 15th miles. I probably will only do 3 miles at 7:15 pace rather than trying for 6 miles, since I don't have the confidence that I can pull that off, since I'm somewhat lacking in long run experience.
I think that will be my first attempt at a wave run.
Brian
King of PhotoShop
As I mentioned in response to Bill's post, I had nothing to contest. Here is just another way of looking at this subject.
1. Of all the criteria for long distance running success, mileage volume is certainly at the top of the list. If you stack rank all the best performances of everyone who runs, and then next to those times you show their average weekly miles you'll get a pretty good correlation. The people who run well, run a lot! This does not mean there are no anomalies. Someone will always point out a guy who runs fast and doesn't run many miles. This doesn't prove he wouldn't run faster if he ran more of course, but looking at the big data, it lines up pretty good that higher mileage is a good predictor of running success.
2. But to get speed from that big volume of mileage, at some point in your training you have to huff n puff a bit. (HNP) As Bill and other coaches point out, maybe 6 weeks or so of this will sharpen you up.
3) But our ability to run a lot of miles and incorporate speed as we get older, is hampered by our ability to recover. I often tell the younger people, "I can do the same hard workouts you do, slower than you of course, but I can do them. The difference between us is that tomorrow you can come out here and do this workout again, and I need two days of recovery.
4) So the Tinman came up with this plan of having just two key workouts in a week, but incorporating both mileage volume and quality mileage n the same workout, and one of his recommended workouts is the wave run. As Bill accurately points out, it does the same job as running 30-40 minutes of tempo or a few miles at MP, whatever. I simply like it because it GUARANTEES me i won't get deep into oxygen debt because of the way the recovery miles are embedded. In other words, I KNOW I am going to run 5 quality miles, whereas in a tempo run I may misjudge, go into debt early and mess up the workout which cuts it short and takes me longer to recover.
5) So go back up there and see HNP. You can design a number of workouts that incorporate HNP on your runs, and you don't need a wave run to do them. The idea is to simply get the HR up for a period of time during your workouts in whatever number of days you can tolerate and recover from. Here is what that looks like for me, one month shy of 65 years old. And for you it will be different. I have learned I can now only run 40 miles a week. At 50 miles a week I will break down after 4-6 weeks of it, but 40 i can do. I have run the last ten weeks at 40 mpw, and during that time I have run 3 races, with my 4th coming up on Saturday. So, 40 per week, a race every two weeks, and for fun I am following the 15% rule, or 6 miles of that 40 is quality. It seems to be working for me.
6) So today I wanted to do just a little bit of HNP because I am racing on Saturday, so inside my 8 miles this morning I did 5 x 1/4 mile (7:08 pace) with 1/4 mile jog recovery. This is not ideal, but it gave me just 1.25 miles of speed and got my HR up for just under 20 minutes.
7) So while the wave run is fun, and the time flies by, and you recover easily from it, the lesson is that you should design some of these runs yourself, incorporating some speed and recovery within your daily miles. That's one of the reasons why coaches give you pickups and strides. You can create something similar for yourself. Spareribs
I'm way out of my league around here when it comes to training advice. I haven't followed any type of strict plan since my high school cross country days in the 70's. But, there may be other people like me who would benefit from forgetting about hitting specific paces in wave runs other fartlek type runs. When you are training there is all different types of terrain (as others have mentioned.) Also, when you are training, you don't have the same rested legs you will have for a target race where you taper.
I like the idea of running by effort. Scrap pace watching. Get off the track (if that's where you go.) This article is for 5k training but the idea would work for any distance:
"To avoid the trap of training by pace, we go off-track for our workouts, running on the trails or the road. This eliminates the temptation to check split times during our reps. It also allows us to practice adjusting for race-day variables: weather, terrain, our fatigue level, etc. The ability to adjust for variables is essential to race-day success." http://runningtimes.com/Print.aspx?articleID=19258
I like reading about all the training advice. I'm just throwing this out in case there are any slackers (like myself) who might be lurking. Trying to hit a 10k pace during a wave run on tired legs can sometimes be discouraging and sometimes you hurt yourself trying too hard.
The Half Marathon Program that I will begin following in August is from Runners' World, and it includes one Long Run that it calls an "LR Stamina". I may have modified it slightly, but I'm supposed to run 15 miles with 3 to 6 of the miles in the middle at my targetted Half Marathon Pace (7:15/mi). I have to admit that this sounds very challenging at this stage of the game, since I just did a 15 miler 2 Saturdays ago at about 8:15 to 8:20 pace, and I was quite tested on the 13th through 15th miles. I probably will only do 3 miles at 7:15 pace rather than trying for 6 miles, since I don't have the confidence that I can pull that off, since I'm somewhat lacking in long run experience. I think that will be my first attempt at a wave run. Brian
Brian, a couple of points here.
It will only be a wave run if you alternate these fast miles with a mile at easy pace, not run them consecutively.
And secondly, whatever you do, you will be better off ensuring that you get 6 miles of quality at a slightly slower speed, than if you run 3 miles at the faster speed.
I would also like to say that there is danger in running miles at your targeted HM pace, rather than at your known HM pace, for any length of time, simply because it may truncate the workout. And finally, let me say that if you are able to run 15 miles, with 6 miles at 7:15 embedded in them, even with easy miles after each one, that is one hell of a workout! Spareribs
For Dave59, great post!
Here is an excerpt from my Dallas Morning News running blog in May:
"First, I know you've heard the expression "train don't strain," but what does it mean? A helpful tip when you are doing a track workout is this: quit when you feel you have completed the workout. You are tired, but if pressed you could do one more repetition. The idea is that you want to be able to train again, completely recovered two days later, so avoid the "killer" workout.
Second, if you have a coach, make sure there is some dialog between you about what the workout should be and its purpose. This ensures that coaching is a collaborative effort and you feel good about what you are doing. Adults perform more effectively when they know why they are doing something and how it will benefit them.
Here is an example from Lydiard's book, "Running with Lydiard." He was coaching Richard Tayler just before the '74 Commonwealth Gamesand Tayler had not been running well. Lydiard sent him out to do a heavy anaerobic workout. They were working at a college campus one day when a group of students stopped to watch.
"'What's he doing?' one asked.'Repetitions,' I explained.They knew all about those. 'How many is he going to do?''I don't know.''What times is he running?''I'm not timing him.'
They exchanged looks of disbelief. Was I supposed to be coaching one of New Zealand's best runners?
Then I asked them, 'How far around is this track anyway?' They knew then that I didn't know what I was talking about. When Dick finished and joined us, they asked him, 'How many did you do?'
'I didn't count them', said Dick.'What times were you running?''I didn't time them.'
I decided it was time to explain to these boys before they ran off laughing, that times and numbers were unimportant. What mattered was the effect on Tayler of what he was doing; and he knew better than I did what he wanted to do and what was enough."
So if you are going to do heavy anaerobic work, you must do so in a way that jealously guards your good conditioning. And if you subscribe to one of these 16- or 18-week training programs with its prescribed workouts, make sure you weigh each workout against what you know to be reasonable for you." Spareribs
When the topic of Wave run came up, you'll notice I concentrated more on Tempo miles rather than simply a Wave run. As Spareribs accurately points out, there are many ways to get your Heart Rate elevated. A Wave run is only one of them. I really like Fartleks and such. But I haven't gotten around to fitting them into my weeks yet. I will probably start with those next week. These get the Heart Rate elevated too.
And to Dave's point about running by feel rather than trying to hit some arbitrary pace, I could not agree more. I NEVER look at pace while I'm running. NEVER. Well, maybe during a race if I'm trying to target some Goal pace, but never during training. I run strictly by feel and then when I upload my data I see what paces I was able to do. Because I run on flat terrains, and because I run different workouts, I have developed a real sense of my pace based on how I feel - the effort I'm putting forth.
Incidentally, after my long period of much reduced running last winter (due to back and hip pain), when I came back I had completely lost my sense of pace. What felt hard, might by EZ paced. What felt EZ might end up being MP. But over the past 3 months I've gotten my sense of pace back.
"Some are the strong, silent type. You can't put your finger on exactly what it is they bring to the table until you run without them and then you realize that their steadiness fills a hole that leaks energy in their absence." - Kristin Armstrong
So let's draw some conclusions from what Bill and Dave said. 1) It's a good idea to KNOW what pace you are running because you will need to know it quite often, duh, like in a race. 2) But in training workouts, you are safer if you run by effort. So it takes a little time and concentration to learn pace and it's a bit easier to do if you look at your pace after the workout, rather than staring at your watch all the time. Good post Dave. Spareribs
It will only be a wave run if you alternate these fast miles with a mile at easy pace, not run them consecutively. And secondly, whatever you do, you will be better off ensuring that you get 6 miles of quality at a slightly slower speed, than if you run 3 miles at the faster speed.
1) Noted. I guess it won't be a wave. Never mind.
2) I agree. I will put a note in my log for that day.
I almost always try to run by effort rather than pace. I love my Garmin for knowing the distance (understanding the inherent inaccuracies there), and seeing the paces I ran afterwards. I do a lot of the same routes many days of the week and like to compare how I did based on how the run felt. I've always thought I didn't do "wave runs" because I rarely can hold the prescribed paces at the times I need to do them. Always seems like I have to do a HMP mile when faced with a big hill. Then I'm coming down that hill on an "easy" mile. But it all works out if I work on "effort" rather than pace. Cool. I guess I feel I've been given permission to call it a wave run, even if my "easy" miles might at times be faster than my MP miles. Weird, I know.
I like the discussion about effort. My problem is, I have trouble doing quality runs in this heat so I've been moving many of them to the treadmill. There we are faced with certain paces so I tend to stick strictly to MP & HMP instead of effort. Any ideas? By the way, if anyone reviews the little bit of work I've done on my marathon training plan and has feedback, I would love that too. Just click the link in my log.
"I didn’t run a race until I was 41 and that was a marathon! Let that sink in for a minute." -me