RunningAHEAD - Topic: Intervals, anaerobic work, the "data" and other observations

Spareribs

King of PhotoShop

posted: 1/16/2009 at 9:01 AM

Quote from jdmom3 on 1/15/2009 at 3:41 PM:

I know the Pfitzinger programs don't have any of that in them - just tempo, long and MP running.

I beg to differ. There is a lot of VO2 max in Pfitz' marathon programs. Look at this: http://pfitzinger.com/marathontraining.shtml Spareribs

MrFinn

Prince of Fatness

posted: 1/16/2009 at 9:03 AM

Quote from Tramps on 1/15/2009 at 5:33 PM:

Again, my concerns are largely practical since I don’t have easy access to a track—which is one reason I almost never do intervals. But I would like to work a little speed work in this year and am looking for ways to do this on (often hilly) roads.

I don't have access to a track either, and am planning on running a marathon in the fall. What I plan on doing instead of intervals is running a few races in the 5K - 10K range. I'll run some easy miles before and after the race. 5K's are nice because they aren't too difficult to recover from and they don't interrupt your training all that much.

Not at it at all.

Runrtim57

Marathon Maniac #3309

posted: 1/16/2009 at 9:35 AM
modified: 1/16/2009 at 9:40 AM

Quote from Spareribs on 1/16/2009 at 9:01 AM:

I beg to differ. There is a lot of VO2 max in Pfitz' marathon programs. Look at this: http://pfitzinger.com/marathontraining.shtml http://pfitzinger.com/marathontraining.shtml Spareribs

Made it a live link. I haven't respond yet to this thread, as I am just soaking it all in right now...but love my fast track and speed work. Great and informative info Ribs Tim

Running has given me the courage to start, the determination to keep trying, and the childlike spirit to have fun along the way - Run often and run long, but never outrun your Joy of running!

jdmom3

posted: 1/16/2009 at 12:19 PM
modified: 1/16/2009 at 12:20 PM

I'm sure Ribs is right; I am going only on memory and it's been awhile since I looked at the plans. At any rate, I am sure many runners can get by without a lot of (or any) anaerobic interval work when training for a marathon. I did not do much, if any, when training for Cleveland. I felt that the long progressive runs or long runs finishing with MP miles combined with mid-week medium long runs and tempos were the best workouts for learning to race a marathon. Ray is a good example of someone who doesn't run anaerobic intervals and still runs fast marathons. I will continue to point out that I ran a sub 60 minute ten mile race when I was 25 off a year of running that included exactly zero intervals. But again, YMMV. Ray, I am still nursing my knee so no racing for me until it's completely healed. It is on the mend but I think it will be another couple of months before I can declare it healed. Meg

Once a runner . . .

rbbmoose

posted: 1/16/2009 at 1:07 PM

I have no doubt that speedwork can be helpful - but like Meg I don't believe it is necessary to run fast marathons. FWIW, My shortest hard workout before running Philly was 10 miles (just around 6:10)/mile. - Yet my time (2:42:23 at age 48) was over 84%AG grade and I believe there were less than a dozen marathons run in 2008 by marthons my age or older. Ray

breger1

posted: 1/16/2009 at 1:47 PM

Ray and Meg, You both are far faster and far more experienced than I am. And what you say about not needing speedwork for marathon training is accurate. But what I've been using speedwork and longish tempo runs for lately, is to keep me from falling into a pace rut. (And if I get faster that's a bonus!) When I trained for my previous marathons, most everything was easy miles, with the exception of a few harder runs right before taper. I found it difficult on race day to run 26.2 miles at a pace that was 10% to 15% faster than what I had trained at. I'm really trying to mix up the paces over the course of the week. And trying to do many runs at MP for longer distances. I want my body and mind to "remember" MP. Bill

"Some are the strong, silent type. You can't put your finger on exactly what it is they bring to the table until you run without them and then you realize that their steadiness fills a hole that leaks energy in their absence." - Kristin Armstrong

jdmom3

posted: 1/16/2009 at 2:20 PM
modified: 1/16/2009 at 2:23 PM

I found it difficult on race day to run 26.2 miles at a pace that was 10% to 15% faster than what I had trained at.

Bill, that's the purpose of those MP runs. Try running several MP miles at the end of your long runs - it really helps teach you how to run fast on tired legs. After all, the hard part of the marathon is not the first half or even the first 20 miles. It's those last 6.2. And I totally agree with running faster paces, by the way. I just don't think that intervals are necessary in order to do that if your main goal is the marathon distance.

Once a runner . . .

rbbmoose

posted: 1/16/2009 at 2:58 PM

Quote from breger1 on 1/16/2009 at 1:47 PM:

Ray and Meg, You both are far faster and far more experienced than I am. And what you say about not needing speedwork for marathon training is accurate. But what I've been using speedwork and longish tempo runs for lately, is to keep me from falling into a pace rut. (And if I get faster that's a bonus!) When I trained for my previous marathons, most everything was easy miles, with the exception of a few harder runs right before taper. I found it difficult on race day to run 26.2 miles at a pace that was 10% to 15% faster than what I had trained at. I'm really trying to mix up the paces over the course of the week. And trying to do many runs at MP for longer distances. I want my body and mind to "remember" MP. Bill

There is no way I would attempt to go out on race day faster than what I have trained for....what I try to do is run a lot of miles at my race pace so that it feels relatively comfortable. Longish tempo runs (10-14 miles) @MP is one of the two hard workouts I do each week (the other is 20 mile LR). The rest of the days I run as slow as I can (8-9 minutes/mile). Every few weeks I run faster long run (around 6:30-6:45/mile). And as Meg mentions, I always try to finish LRs at MP. So that's my very simple plan.... I'm not claiming its some great discovery, just a practical plan that works for me. (BTW...some clown on another NG told me that my midweek workouts are not tempo runs, so I'm not sure what they are). Ray

Ileneforward

#artbydmcbride

posted: 1/16/2009 at 3:09 PM

I disagree with Spareribs on everything. Especially periodization. I like to mix a little of everything into each week of running; long run, short aerobic runs, hill work and speed work.

Runners run

Slo

posted: 1/16/2009 at 3:15 PM
modified: 1/16/2009 at 3:15 PM

Quote from Ileneforward on 1/16/2009 at 3:09 PM:

I disagree with Spareribs on everything. Especially periodization. I like to mix a little of everything into each week of running; long run, short aerobic runs, hill work and speed work.

Thank God....... I was beginning to think I was the only one ! Big grin

Spareribs

King of PhotoShop

posted: 1/16/2009 at 3:20 PM

Ilene, I would guess most people here are like you, based on what I read of what people actually do. There are very few who advocate periodization. Until I recover completely and can make some sort of period plan, I will likely do a lot of what you do, with the exception of "speed work," as I don't know what you mean by it. BTW, this thread is achieving what I thought it would, some discussion and sharing of ideas. I don't know everything, just the stuff I believe, which doesn't make it right in general or in particular for any individual. When I used the word 'cerebral' earlier, I was referring to those runners who, right or wrong, at least think about how to train, try things, draw conclusions, read and analyze, compare with others. These are all important cognitive steps in the learning cycle. Tramps' response to my first post is evidence of someone thinking things through. That is what I meant. It has little to do with subject matter expertise or content. Spareribs

rbbmoose

posted: 1/16/2009 at 3:28 PM

Quote from Ileneforward on 1/16/2009 at 3:09 PM:

I disagree with Spareribs on everything. Especially periodization. I like to mix a little of everything into each week of running; long run, short aerobic runs, hill work and speed work.

Well you have to be nuts to disagree with SpareRibs on everything! I'm on board with periodization, cold beer and 4 day work weeks. And I think we need EarthRunner back. Ray

Tramps

posted: 1/16/2009 at 3:51 PM

Quote from rbbmoose on 1/16/2009 at 2:58 PM:

Longish tempo runs (10-14 miles) @MP is one of the two hard workouts I do each week (the other is 20 mile LR). The rest of the days I run as slow as I can (8-9 minutes/mile). Every few weeks I run faster long run (around 6:30-6:45/mile). And as Meg mentions, I always try to finish LRs at MP. So that's my very simple plan.... I'm not claiming its some great discovery, just a practical plan that works for me. (BTW...some clown on another NG told me that my midweek workouts are not tempo runs, so I'm not sure what they are). Ray

Wow, that's so interesting...and certainly a different approach. There's no doubting the results you generate, that's for sure! BTW, my understanding was that, technically, "tempo" pace was considerably faster than MP pace. For example (from: http://runningtimes.com/Print.aspx?articleID=5615) : "Also known as an anaerobic threshold (AT) run or lactate-threshold run, the tempo run was popularized by Jack Daniels, Ph.D., about a decade ago. Here’s his definition, taken from Daniels’ Running Formula (Human Kinetics): "A tempo run is nothing more than 20 minutes of steady running at threshold pace." (He goes on to say that 20 minutes is ideal, but may be varied to suit the needs of a particular course.) Without getting too technical, threshold pace is the effort level just below which the body’s ability to clear lactate, a by-product of carbohydrate metabolism, can no longer keep up with lactate production. Daniels states that this pace is, for most people, about 25 to 30 seconds per mile slower than current 5K race pace. Exercise physiologist and coach Pete Pfitzinger adds: "For very fit runners, the pace is between 15K and half-marathon race pace."

Be safe. Be kind.

nonoruns

Renee the dog

posted: 1/16/2009 at 7:54 PM

Somebody help me... Big grin

Define periodization. It sounds like I could be on board, but want to be sure what is meant by it here!

GOALS 2012: UNDECIDED

GOALS 2011: LIVE!!!

xor

posted: 1/16/2009 at 8:00 PM

Quote from nonoruns on 1/16/2009 at 7:54 PM:

Somebody help me... Define periodization. It sounds like I could be on board, but want to be sure what is meant by it here!

Take an x-week training planning towards a goal... let's say an 18 week plan. Split it into sections... say 4 4 week sections, 1 two week section. Each section has a specific focus: base building perhaps... strength maybe... endurance... recovery... Periodization. Also, if you utilize lots of ellipsises (ellipses?), you have periodized.

Masters Running

Intervals, anaerobic work, the "data" and other observations (Read 941 times)