Sub-4 Marathon Group

February 2013 (Read 58 times)


Smashy!!!

    I'm still doing the HM tune-up approach even with doing Hanson for Philly. My HM falls in at tailend of speed SOS's and feel if I can change goal if HM warrants it before I start Strength where GMP needs to be a little more dialed in.

     

    That's a very different approach. That tune-up occurs before the heart of the Hansons plan. In the Pfitz, and like, approach, the tune-up happens at the end of the plan. Two totally different points of data, in my view.

    PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

    Flinders


    Three Martini Lunch

      onemile: I'm not the Hansons expert on what their workouts are specifically aimed at, but my approach to paces is that if the pace you are running allows you to recover fully in the time alloted by the plan and doesn't adversely impact the next workout, then you should be fine to train at that pace.  And I'm not the one to ask about goal paces because I always tend towards aggressive paces.

       

      Simon: No, not a triathlete.  My gym has a pool, and I have always been a decent swimmer and enjoy it.  I also try to swim in the weeks, like this one, where I am working my mileage back up to where I want it to be after a bit of a layoff, to get more areobic work in while saving the wear and tear on my legs.

       

      cmb: Hope the ITB gets better!

       

      Roll: I felt that way a bit earlier this year when all I could get in were my 3.5s at lunch.  I was itching to go further but various ailments and life weren't cooperating.

       

      Banshee: Nice

       

      Akalei: Good luck!  Looking for jobs is miserable, especially in our profession.  Are you looking for any particular practice area, or just anything?

      M: 3:31:56

      HM: 1:37:33

      jedigunnie26.2


      BQ in 2013

        Rollcast - it's similiar to marathon plans, but you're doing just about all the speed workouts at goal 5k pace with some hill repeats mixed in. Some faster intervals in there too towards end like 100s and 200s. Tempos done at HMP and 10k pace and LRs done at easy pace. Plan set-up for 3 races at end every other week (Wk9/11/13) with last one goal race. Plan 13 weeks in total. Not sure races will line-up for me and might not exactly follow that, but have a goal 5k in mind to end it though. Should get me in Hanson frame of mind before marathon training.

         

        jedi - I am curious to hear what you think about the Hanson 5 K plan 

        PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

         

        2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

         

        2013

        Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

        Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

        Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

         

        Up Next:

        Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

        RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

        Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

        nachosgrande


          But the Hansons do feel it is necessary, and that is the whole point of their program. It doesn't mean you can't train at paces other than your GMP, but then why do Hansons at all?

          Additionally, your scenario and Onemile's is completely opposite. You trained faster and the raced slower. She's worried about training too fast, and then bonking in the race. If her approach was to do those Tempos at 8:30, and then race at 8:45, then there'd be no real debate here at all. But then again at that point, why do Hansons or why not just do the Tempos at 8:45 like the Hansons prescribe?

           

          My sense is she's equivocating when she refers to 8:45 as her goal pace.  In OneMile's heart of hearts she wants to gun for the 8:30 on race day.  The point of my post was that if she comes to realize that isn't feasible come race day (or hopefully earlier) she can always adjust on the fly.


          Smashy!!!

            Rollcast - it's similiar to marathon plans, but you're doing just about all the speed workouts at goal 5k pace with some hill repeats mixed in. Some faster intervals in there too towards end like 100s and 200s. Tempos done at HMP and 10k pace and LRs done at easy pace. Plan set-up for 3 races at end every other week (Wk9/11/13) with last one goal race. Plan 13 weeks in total. Not sure races will line-up for me and might not exactly follow that, but have a goal 5k in mind to end it though. Should get me in Hanson frame of mind before marathon training.

             

             

            Jedi, does it also have the Strength workouts?

            PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

            jedigunnie26.2


            BQ in 2013

              Never did a Pfitz plan. I've always done a HM 6-8 weeks before my goal marathon.

               

               

              That's a very different approach. That tune-up occurs before the heart of the Hansons plan. In the Pfitz, and like, approach, the tune-up happens at the end of the plan. Two totally different points of data, in my view.

              PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

               

              2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

               

              2013

              Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

              Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

              Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

               

              Up Next:

              Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

              RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

              Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13


              Bad Ass

                What's the use of trying to train at MP if you're not going to race at that pace? I would use the pace you're planning on racing at.

                 

                And the HMP + 12 minutes, it's a good predictor, although I use HM + 20 just to be on the safe side for me and the asthma).

                 

                Oh playing mindgames with myself is what I do best.  Smile

                 

                The problem I have is that I know I can do the training at 8:30. So in my mind, I feel like I should do the training at the harder pace even though I don't plan to race at that pace.  That I'll get MORE benefit from using the faster paces.   But then I'm not learning efficiency and all at my real MP.

                 

                And then there's the other part of me that is secretly hoping I am going to get faster and 8:30 will suddenly be the right pace Blush

                 

                Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                Blog

                "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


                Bad Ass

                  Training at faster than your actual GMP can also be disastrous as you don't get as much endurance when you run on pace than when you run faster than you should.

                   

                   

                  My sense is she's equivocating when she refers to 8:45 as her goal pace.  In OneMile's heart of hearts she wants to gun for the 8:30 on race day.  The point of my post was that if she comes to realize that isn't feasible come race day (or hopefully earlier) she can always adjust on the fly.

                  Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                  Blog

                  "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

                  jedigunnie26.2


                  BQ in 2013

                    Not really. At that point you doing faster intervals like 100s, 200s, etc at goal 5k and mile pace.

                     

                     

                    Jedi, does it also have the Strength workouts?

                    PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                     

                    2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                     

                    2013

                    Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                    Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                    Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                     

                    Up Next:

                    Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                    RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                    Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

                    onemile


                      Wow.. a couple thoughts...  I've never blown up in a race before.  My first marathon (and only) I ran a 1:59:46 half marathon 6 weeks out and I was planning to go for 4:20 as my goal but then the weather forecast changed to hot (into the mid 80s) so I adjusted my goal to 4:30.  I ended up running even splits but it never felt harder than my training long runs.  So I wanted to try to experience a little more marathon suffering this time. I feel like I missed that last time.  I've always been good at lining up my 5k to HM times within a minute of McMillian.  But I don't have a well run marathon to have to gauge of how that should line up.

                       

                      Banshee - I think your half marathon time is pretty soft Smile

                       

                      Nachos - I'm on week 7 of my plan right now.  I guess I do secretly want to run 3:45 which is an 8:35 pace.  But I wouldn't try for it if I can't run a 1:45:00 half or faster when I do my tune up race in March.  So I guess in my mind, running my MP runs at 8:30 kind of leave that possibility open.

                       

                      Cbus - I am planning to run a 15k tune up next Saturday so that might be when to adjust my paces? Do you think?

                       

                      Docket - Cbus was referring to McMillian plus 12 minutes, not HM plus 12 minutes. Big difference Smile  Hansons has you running all your long runs faster than easy, so I'm not sure if they buy into that 'you have to run your long runs super slow theory'. I feel like I've done plenty of slow runs and need to get away from that.

                      jedigunnie26.2


                      BQ in 2013

                        Training at faster than your actual GMP can also be disastrous as you don't get as much endurance when you run on pace than when you run faster than you should.

                         

                         

                        ^This. I agree with Docket. Trust the plan.

                        PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                         

                        2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                         

                        2013

                        Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                        Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                        Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                         

                        Up Next:

                        Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                        RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                        Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

                        nachosgrande


                          Training at faster than your actual GMP can also be disastrous as you don't get as much endurance when you run on pace than when you run faster than you should.

                           

                           

                          I acknowledge that.  I think she just doesn't know what her true GMP should be, which, to me, seems like a problem with the Hanson's approach, particularly for recreational runners who can make fairly quick large improvements as they increase mileage (granted I know nothing about Hanson's other than what I've picked up from here, so I freely admit this could be a case of talking out of my ass..lol).   Plus, I'm less wary about her endurance being an issue since she'll be averaging 55+mpw on top of an already solid base.  My guess is she's fine as long as 8:30 keeps her in the aerobic zone (sub LT)...I think.

                          onemile


                            But the plan is what gave me the 8:30ish pace in the first place!  And Hansons fb page told me to use it too. Joking

                             

                             

                            ^This. I agree with Docket. Trust the plan.

                            jedigunnie26.2


                            BQ in 2013

                              onemile - I misunderstood and though you were running a faster MP than what 3:45 goal states. I say just stick it out at paces and if in a few weeks still feeling too much back off on the goal to maybe 3:50, I think there is a section in book about i goal not right and how to change it.

                               

                              But the plan is what gave me the 8:30ish pace in the first place!  And Hansons fb page told me to use it too. Joking

                               

                              PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                               

                              2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                               

                              2013

                              Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                              Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                              Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                               

                              Up Next:

                              Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                              RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                              Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

                              nachosgrande


                                Nachos - I'm on week 7 of my plan right now.  I guess I do secretly want to run 3:45 which is an 8:35 pace.  But I wouldn't try for it if I can't run a 1:45:00 half or faster when I do my tune up race in March.  So I guess in my mind, running my MP runs at 8:30 kind of leave that possibility open.

                                 

                                That's what I suspected.  You've done a conservative marathon and you want to go balls to the wall and see what your limits are.  Honestly, to second what Indi said earlier, if you aren't currently training with a heart rate monitor I'd recommend you pick one up and give it a shot.  Personally, once I have some miles under my legs, my heart rate is a direct indicator of my current fitness.  Run a max heart rate test and then some true LT/tempo miles (based on feel), and then some extended miles at 8:30 and 8:45 to see how they correspond.