Hills... I've been pondering hills lately.  I think I could write a novel on this subject!

Hills

by Bagopux

Chapter 1

It was the best of runs.  It was the worst of runs....

On going uphill:  What to do going uphill depends on so many things.  One of the most important is what you are training for on that particular run.  For example, Hudson (reading his book now) has a crazy workout of 8 second hill sprints.  You find a steep hill and bust your butt up it as hard as you can for 8 seconds, go back down and do it again.  As far as I can tell so far, these are strength training and anaerobic exercises.  But if you're talking about LT or MP, you're not going to sprint.  I think what you don't want to do is to exhaust yourself and break the continuity of your interval from an effort/lactate perspective.  So, on those runs, when I'm going up the hill I'll slow down some and try to push my effort level so I can make it to the top without going well out of my HR range.  Slightly out I think is OK.  For instance, Pfitz allows a slight HR adjustment when going up hill.  Another way to look at it is that I don't want to end up at the top and be breathing any harder than my usual 2:2 pattern for LT.  That is, keep the breathing under control all the way through.  Keep doing that and over time your pace up the hill should increase under the same effort, which, I presume, is the goal.

One thing to keep in mind is how to allocate your effort.  When I first started paying attention to hills, I thought that the thing to do was to attack the hill; to kick it into gear right at the bottom and try to maintain that all the way up.  Oh how wrong that was.  What works best for me is to ease into it.  I find that if I start slowly at the bottom of the hill and then pick up the effort as I go up, I get to the top with far greater success.  This is particularly tricky on rolling hills because you usually have a nice pace coming down the previous hill at an artificially low HR for that pace.  So if I hit the inflection point of the hill and start up, my HR is starting unusually low and then shoots up if I start going up hill at a normal pace.  What works best for me is to start putting on the brakes toward the end of the downhill and slow down.  I used to think that using the momentum from the downhill to get myself started on the uphill was a way to make the most efficient use of energy.  Seems intuitive, no?  But it doesn't work.  Not for me.  Tried it over and over and it always fails.  I always end up a hundred feet up the next hill with my HR way up.  

On going downhill:  I don't think there is any reason in training to speed up going downhill unless the downhill is so slight that you can speed up so much that you can maintain your HR/effort in the prescribed range.  Any decent hill is going to have a decent slope going down.  Downhills are the places where you can really hurt yourself, and for what?  What do you gain training-wise by racing down a really easy slope while your HR is going down?  Nothing really.  Not worth it.  In fact, if the hill is very steep, walk down.  Avoiding injury to your knees or ITB is more important than the momentary "weeeeeeeee, I'm going really fast" feeling.

Thanks for the shoe thoughts guys!  I was worried about transitioning so close to the race, but the 2 LRS employees (who both seemed very knowledgeable) both seemed convinced I wouldn't have a hard time because of my usual strike pattern.  Evidently, my heel barely even touches the ground when I run.  If the Lunarglides weren't causing such a huge blister (this is not a normal blister...it is huge, bloody, and kept growing and growing...I actually thought it was getting infected at one point), I definitely wouldn't have changed shoes so close to the race.  I am thinking of picking up a pair of Ghosts and then alternating them with the PFs up until race time, and then deciding which to wear for the marathon.  You know what really, really makes me mad:  DH runs in Adrenalines, even though he doesn't even need a support shoe, and Wal-mart brand socks and has never had a single problem!

CBus (and others):  Thanks so much for the advice...I will definitely try to break them in slowly.  The problem is the Guide's are not working well for me.  I have only had them for about 3-4 weeks and I really, really dislike them.  The shoe that was working pretty well was the Lunarglide 4, but then we had the blister problem.  The reason I purchased the Guide's where to replace the Nikes but I seriously hate them.  So, now kinda at a loss for what do to...I have the PF, which require a transition, and then I have the Lunarglide, which cause a huge blister, and then I have the Guide, which I hate.  My thought is to try to return the Guide to my LRS but what do I replace them with?  Another stability shoe, which I don't really need, or just a regular neutral shoe like the Ghost.  Yes, I realize this is sounds like a saga here but I really don't want to have shoe problems going in to my first marathon, ya know?

ETA:  I absolutely prefer warm to cold!!  DH is the exact opposite though.

CBus (and others):  Thanks so much for the advice...I will definitely try to break them in slowly.  The problem is the Guide's are not working well for me.  I have only had them for about 3-4 weeks and I really, really dislike them.  The shoe that was working pretty well was the Lunarglide 4, but then we had the blister problem.  The reason I purchased the Guide's where to replace the Nikes but I seriously hate them.  So, now kinda at a loss for what do to...I have the PF, which require a transition, and then I have the Lunarglide, which cause a huge blister, and then I have the Guide, which I hate.  My thought is to try to return the Guide to my LRS but what do I replace them with?  Another stability shoe, which I don't really need, or just a regular neutral shoe like the Ghost.  Yes, I realize this is sounds like a saga here but I really don't want to have shoe problems going in to my first marathon, ya know?

 

ETA:  I absolutely prefer warm to cold!!  DH is the exact opposite though.

 Hi Ami, 

Sorry if you went over this already, but what exactly don't you like about the Guide--and was it the model 5? The 5 has a lower heel to toe drop (8 vs. 12), and very minimal stability. I'd say just about as much as the Lunarglides. And where is the blister on the glides? 

Also, can you say in more detail what you do and don't like about each shoe? What shoe your LRS guys say you need (neutral versus light stability)? And what you are looking for in a shoe? 

The shoe selection process can be a very torturous one for some (like me). Some people, like your DH, can put on any shoe, even one not intended for them, and start running. Others have a lot of problems. The interesting thing for me is that you can run in the Flow without any real pain, but you were recommended stability shoes. That's weird. I'm a shoe junkie, and so maybe I can use my (useless) knowledge to help you find a shoe (I also review shoes for Runningshoeguru.com, which has given me exposure to a lot of different kinds of neutral shoes). 

Good morning!  7 miles for me this morning. 1 w/u, 8 x 600s w/400 recoveries, 1 c/d.  After a Clif bar, did upper body strength training, stretching, and The Stick.  Enjoying my eggs and toast as I type.  I could do this every day.  I love vacation...even though I'm still hitting the laptop a bit!

AmiK:  I'm the opposite of you...a true heel striker with mild pronation.  I love the Guides.  I've worn them for several years now...from the 4, to the 5, and now to the 6.  I think the 6s are the best yet.  They are smaller and lighter than the 5s.  If you don't have a shoe thats comfortable (and I'd agree it's too dangerous to run your race in the PF) see what the LRS can do for you with an exchange.  If the Guides aren't working for you, how about the Saucony Fastwitch or the Asics DS Racer?  They are racing shoes for mild overpronaters.  That might be enough support to get you through and also be light/flexible enough for your forefoot strike.  Just a guess on my part.  I'll defer to the experts at your LRS and on here.

You guys are so awesomely helpful!  Here are the details:  I first started running about a year and 1/2 ago and was told at that time I was overpronating and needed a stability shoe.  I had the Brooks Adrenaline and they were ok, no real problems but kinda heavy.  After the Adrenaline, I switched to the Ravenna 2, because the LRS guy thought I really didn't need much stability if any when he watched me run (that was about a year ago).  I liked the Ravenna, but the toe box was a bit narrow and my poor pinky toes did not love them.  When it was time for new shoes, I got the Nike Lunarguide 4 because they had a wider toe box, but were light stability, which I still thought I needed.  When I first started wearing them, I got a small blister on my left foot, just below by big toe (right on the pad of my foot, right on the inside).  I thought this might just be from increased mileage or that I needed new socks, so I tried that first, but the blister just kept growing and growing.  It got big and bloody, very painful, and then I had a doc drain it and it was full of pus.  He is a foot and ankle surgeon and told me I should really switch shoes, which was a bummer because I did like the LG4 because they were lighter and just felt good on my feet.

So, went to LRS and they recommended the Guide 5 as being very similar to the LG4.  I tried them on and they felt ok in the store so I went with it.  From my first run in them, though, they just felt off.  For whatever reason, they feel heavy and clunky to me, even though I think they are pretty similar to the LG4 (and yes, the heel drop is 8mm).  So, here I was stuck with a pair of LG4 and the Guides and not really able to run well in either one.  Upon some reading, I realized that many people are either "misdiagnosed" as overpronating or with experience, change their running style so they no longer need a stability shoe.  With that in mind, I went back to LRS and had them watch me run/walk and all that good stuff (hadn't been assessed in over a year).  Both employees agreed I didn't need a stability shoe and that I should try something that supports a forefoot strike.  I tried on Newton's, but didn't really want to go that extreme just yet.  Also tried on the PF and the Kinvara and went with the PF.  My plan was to transition to the PF and I guess use the Guide's as my other shoe for a while.  The problem with that is now that I have run in the PF, the Guides feel even worse.  I feel like running in them makes me change my entire running style if that makes any sense.   I know that's not very specific...they don't cause pain or anything, I just feel strange running in them.  The PF really feel like they were made for me and I had a great run in them Sunday, as dumb as that was to run the entire 16 miles in them.  However, I obviously want to be smart about the whole thing and not injure myself or negate all the training I have done for the marathon with something as silly as a shoe problem.

If it makes any difference, I have no injury history and run around 50 mpw.  Again, I really appreciate you guys all taking the time to help me and would appreciate any suggestions on where to go from here.