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Form: angles, length and bounce (Read 1055 times)


Interval Junkie --Nobby

    I'm not sure whether this somax stuff is snake-oil or not, but I'd like to hear opinions on the form critique in this video:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeqan6_sub-2-hour-marathon-an-american-rec_sport

     

    These guys propose that if top American runners could

    1) reduce vertical bounce

    2) improve stride length

    3) reduce toe lift

    4) stop crossing over the center line

     

    they could easily beat the top Kenyans.  The idea is that the Americans' form is making them work harder to reach the same performance level.

     

    I've seen bounce mentioned several times in the literature, and while the inefficiency of it makes sense, the exaggerated comparisons and metaphors in the video make me order grains of salt from amazon.com before taking the video producer too seriously.

     

    Stride length is the one that really caught my eye.  Back in HS Track the coach used to praise my long stride length; I was a middle distance heel crusher.  However, when getting back into running I heard a lot about foot-turnover and shortening strides to not over-stride.  I realize these are not necessarily incompatible, but I'd like to hear how they fit.

     

    To reduce my heel striking, and promote mid-foot and eventually forefoot striking (even easing into the latter over 2month, hitting 6mi/week, I injured myself a bit and had to revert to heel), I've shorted my strides to 1/5th of what they were before.  My footfalls are now around 164/min (I don't have a baseline for this).  I'm tall, but trying to get them up to the 175 area.  However, to pick up the cadence I've had to shorten my strides.  To do them both at the same time I would have to run much faster than I want to train.  Over a sprint I could do it, but I couldn't keep that pace for long.

     

    So, here's the question: during training, should I have long strides and quick turn-over even at slow paces?  How am I supposed to make sense of these variables and put them together?  Or which ones to choose at slow paces?

     

    Any recommendations, or comments on the content of the video?

    2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

    Current Status 06/19: Pelvic stress-fracture = 6-weeks of no running.


    Feeling the growl again

      Malarky. To claim those sports of gains from modest form changes, I don't even want too watch it. If you run enough, your body will often start teaching itself better form. But dont expect huge changes in your times like they are apparently claiming. Many newer runners over stride.you do not run fast because you use a long stride, you use a long stride because you run fast. The legs can't write checks your conditioning can't cash. Focus on landing under your center of mass and stride length will take care of itself.

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

         

        So, here's the question: during training, should I have long strides and quick turn-over even at slow paces?  

         

        Stride length times turnover (times dimensional constant) = speed. The only way you can have long strides and quick turnover at slow paces is if you moonwalk.

         

        Other than that, what spaniel said. For a lot of runners, long strides all the time is how to get injured.

        pondman


           

           

          they could easily beat the top Kenyans.  The idea is that the Americans' form is making them work harder to reach the same performance level.

           

           

          If Americans would walk and run long distances as children, they'd have a chance at the Kenyans. But it's probably not going to happen.

           

           I think having good form will make you a better runner and protect you from many injuries. But it's not going to make you an elite runner.

            From the description it sounds like the work of our friend sportjester.  Search this site for Sportjester to read more of this.

             

            If you don't want to get into all that,  I'll give you a clue, "run like an ostrich or a cockroach" 


            Am I doing this right?

              You should talk to the guy who wants you to run like an Ostrich  (I think that's the animal it was).  He could walk 7 mph on the treadmill too.

               

              Sounds like this stuff is right up his alley.

              No excuses....


              Am I doing this right?

                From the description it sounds like the work of our friend sportjester.  Search this site for Sportjester to read more of this.

                 

                If you don't want to get into all that,  I'll give you a clue, "run like an ostrich or a cockroach" 

                 

                 

                I see Happyfeet beat me to it.  Got sidetracked giving my daughter a bath.  

                No excuses....


                Interval Junkie --Nobby

                  Uhm, doesn't an ostrich have backward knees?

                  2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

                  Current Status 06/19: Pelvic stress-fracture = 6-weeks of no running.


                  Menace to Sobriety

                    I'm not sure whether this somax stuff is snake-oil or not, but I'd like to hear opinions on the form critique in this video:

                    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeqan6_sub-2-hour-marathon-an-american-rec_sport

                     

                    These guys propose that if top American runners could

                    1) reduce vertical bounce

                     

                     

                     

                    You should see me play basketball. I've got this nailed.

                    Janie, today I quit my job. And then I told my boss to go f*** himself, and then I blackmailed him for almost sixty thousand dollars. Pass the asparagus.

                      Uhm, doesn't an ostrich have backward knees?

                       a cockroach has 3 pairs of legs, that does not mean we can't run like them.

                        This video is very old news, and the claims about sub 2 hour marathons rather silly. I'm sure the top marathoners and their coaches are perfectly well aware of these kind of considerations - if it was that easy to make big improvements just like that then they would have already done it.

                         

                        More generally on the question of adjusting form: Matt Fitzgerald, in one of his books, suggests trying to run without making a lot of noise (from you feet - not your breathing), rather than specifically trying to think about how you're running and changing that.

                         

                        Personally I like to think - if it ain't broke don't fix it. If you run more you'll get faster without worrying about these things. Your form might change, because your body will learn to be more efficient, but you don't need to think about it.

                         

                        If you find you are getting injuries then aspects of form might be worth looking at (along with other things).


                        Feeling the growl again

                          ... 

                          More generally on the question of adjusting form: Matt Fitzgerald, in one of his books, suggests trying to run without making a lot of noise (from you feet - not your breathing), rather than specifically trying to think about how you're running and changing that.

                           

                          Personally I like to think - if it ain't broke don't fix it. If you run more you'll get faster without worrying about these things. Your form might change, because your body will learn to be more efficient, but you don't need to think about it.

                           

                          If you find you are getting injuries then aspects of form might be worth looking at (along with other things).

                           

                          Consciously changing form is very hard...because the minute you stop thinking about it you revert back to what is natural.  I also ascribe to "run more and a lot will fix itself" but that's not right for everybody.   Those who won't run the mileage necessary to force natural changes like that may benefit from form drills.  Trying to "ninja run", run silently, is probably the most effective way to try to improve form without having to focus on it...you'll hear yourself getting loud again without having to constantly have it on the top of your mind.  I'm sure many of us have caught ourselves running more loudly late in long races as we tire.

                          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                           


                          Fast is better than long

                            I'm sure many of us have caught ourselves running more loudly late in long races as we tire.

                             

                            I also think that as we tire, concentrating on form is the easiest way to get the train back on the tracks. I get a huge bounce just on training runs when I can feel myself weakening if I can just concentrate on the form (quietness and foot placement)

                            2014 Goals: 2500 miles / sub 2 800m / 4:30 mile / sub 16:30 5K

                             

                            Give a man a fire and he'll be warm the rest of the night;
                            Set a man afire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

                            What in the Jehu?


                            Feeling the growl again

                              I also think that as we tire, concentrating on form is the easiest way to get the train back on the tracks. I get a huge bounce just on training runs when I can feel myself weakening if I can just concentrate on the form (quietness and foot placement)

                               

                              +1, I almost added a similar statement to my prior post.

                              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand