Forums >Running 101>Heart Rate Math Question
Why is it sideways?
To be fair you did say, "What's hard about running easy is not knowing what it feels like to run easy." I think just devin and I were raising a legitimate challenge to this assertion. That's when we got into the "red" thing. It is possible that you are right, but it is not self-evident.
If your best argument for the value of MAF as a training system is contingent upon the doubtfulness of the color red, then... I don't know how to respond. I doubt my own views on training much more than I doubt my ability to discern the color red.
MTA: why am I insisting on this point? Because I think the following analogy holds: runner : effort :: artist : paint. Training, racing--these are arts, and though the results are often given in numbers, the medium of a runner's work is effort. Sure, it takes knowledge and experience to become skilled at these tasks. But you teach running the same way you teach painting. Which is to say: you struggle, you struggle, you try, you fail, you learn, you surprise yourself, you chase the faint glimpses of beauty... that's it.
Shit, maybe I am a closet zen master after all.
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Poor color blind runners.
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
Stop patronizing me
"patronize" has always been one of those weird English words to me because it has very divergent multiple meanings.
Ok HappyFeet, I will stop shopping at your store.
Did I advocate MAF as a training system? (I think I referred to at least parts of it as "gobbly-goop" somewhere up thread.) And I think you're being purposefully obtuse about the significance of the color spectrum analogy to your assertion that "easy" effort is, well, easy to discern. *You're* the one that tried to be clever with the whole "This is like saying it takes practice and experience to see the color red." gambit. And that got turned around on you because it *does* take practice and experience to label colors on the color spectrum. "Easy" running is just a label that runners and coaches use to describe a certain level of effort. There is no reason to believe that it is immediately self-evident to someone who has not run before just like "red" (presumably) would be initially challenging to a blind person who one day begins to see.
(Sorry to everyone. I know I should allow this thread to de-escalate, but it annoys me when people get "pissed off" by legitimate disagreements/discussions.)
The King of Beasts
Because I think the following analogy holds: runner : effort :: artist : paint. Training, racing--these are arts, and though the results are often given in numbers, the medium of a runner's work is effort. Sure, it takes knowledge and experience to become skilled at these tasks. But you teach running the same way you teach painting. Which is to say: you struggle, you struggle, you try, you fail, you learn, you surprise yourself, you chase the faint glimpses of beauty... that's it.
as far as I know- that is it.
"As a dreamer of dreams and a travelin' man I have chalked up many a mile. Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks, And I've learned much from both of their styles." ~ Jimmy Buffett
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."”
Just makes me want to get out there and race a race for all I'm worth. Dying to.
"If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus
It's easy...It's all relative. Was it easy easy or moderatly easy?
When I got back into Tri's I got sucked into all the gadgetry and heart rate zones and bike fits and newton shoes. We didn't have all that stuff in the mid 80's.
I finally walked away from all that crap and today I see red as red. I also got faster. Most of my runs today are timed by looking at glowing numbers on the microwave as I head out the door and when I get home. A few times I throw on the Ironman timex and take splits as I pass landmarks that I've measured. I got Jeff's arguments. But yours has confirmed my notion that it's over complicating a very simple process.
If your not on a treadmill, trying to keep your heart rate in a particular zone is a very daunting task. It's much easier to learn what easy feels like. (In my opinion)
Hey JPF, a couple things.
First, I get pissed off on the internet way too often. It's my fault when that happens.
Second, I understand what you are saying about learning how to perceive colors. It is not easy to get the effort exactly right, and as we run, we learn to discriminate finer shades of effort. Just as a painter learns how to see better and more fully by practicing his craft. Beginners are doomed to be beginners, and neither MAF nor you nor me nor a heart rate monitor will change that. I'd rather see them begin to practice running by feel from the get go--and I understand that MAF or using a HRM is a good way to teach it. I want to say to new runners: you CAN distinguish between efforts! Even if it is hard or counter-intuitive from a quantitative standpoint.
Third, I forget what #3 was, but good arguments always come in threes.
Hey JPF, a couple things. First, I get pissed off on the internet way too often. It's my fault when that happens. Second, I understand what you are saying about learning how to perceive colors. It is not easy to get the effort exactly right, and as we run, we learn to discriminate finer shades of effort. Just as a painter learns how to see better and more fully by practicing his craft. Beginners are doomed to be beginners, and neither MAF nor you nor me nor a heart rate monitor will change that. I'd rather see them begin to practice running by feel from the get go--and I understand that MAF or using a HRM is a good way to teach it. I want to say to new runners: you CAN distinguish between efforts! Even if it is hard or counter-intuitive from a quantitative standpoint. Third, I forget what #3 was, but good arguments always come in threes.
Internet: Serious Business.
But seriously, good points. I think you're probably right about "doomed to be a beginner," but it would be nice to offer people a bone so that they don't burn out or get too frustrated. I just restarted a few months ago after seven years away from running and I was pretty lost for the first couple of weeks. I could "remember" my old paces, but was not in anything close to the shape I needed to be in to run them. (Nor am I now.) I think that affects my viewpoint on this more than it should.
I think we agree on 99.9% of this. We're really just arguing about the argument, which is what both of us do as a matter of training. (I'm a lawyer.) But I think everyone else is probably not so amused, so we should probably cool it!
I just restarted a few months ago after seven years away from running and I was pretty lost for the first couple of weeks. I could "remember" my old paces, but was not in anything close to the shape I needed to be in to run them. (Nor am I now.) I think that affects my viewpoint on this more than it should. I think we agree on 99.9% of this. We're really just arguing about the argument, which is what both of us do as a matter of training. (I'm a lawyer.) But I think everyone else is probably not so amused, so we should probably cool it!
I just restarted a few months ago after seven years away from running and I was pretty lost for the first couple of weeks. I could "remember" my old paces, but was not in anything close to the shape I needed to be in to run them. (Nor am I now.) I think that affects my viewpoint on this more than it should.
They're eating this up, brother. You think they're on here to actually learn about running? Ha.
Comebacks are hard. I've done it myself. You've got this old brain that's got its old habits sitting in a body that ain't the same as it used to be. That brain is like wtf body this shouldn't be hard. And body's like wtf brain get off my back. A HRM, like a lawyer, can be a good resource to turn to in order to mediate the dispute. Necessary evil and all that.
Prince of Fatness
They're eating this up, brother.
Maybe a little, heh.
But you ain't shittin' about the comeback being hard. JPF, your log says you're doing a good job of getting out the door on a consistent basis. That's a lot of the battle right there (I am coming off of an injury time out myself). Just keep building on that and you will get there.
Not at it at all.
Objection counselor, I'm very amused.
The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
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Like this thread, particularly like the comment.........."you struggle, you struggle, you try, you fail, you learn, you surprise yourself, you chase the faint glimpses of beauty... that's it."
I am still a beginner, and am still having issues with "effort". There are 2 threads I am trying to reconcile, this one, and a recent one on long runs. Hope I am not taking this out of context, but am really interested in the topic.
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Grandmas Marathon
Fall Marathon - Twin Cities??
As far as the MAF training goes, it is not about running slow, but getting faster and faster at the same aerobic heart rate. AKTrail replied: If you don't get faster by capping the HR at which you run or walk, then it is about running or hiking slowly. Most HR training books that I've used suggest NOT using HRM for anaerobic work because their responses are slowed. But I do base training most of the time anyway (up to 1-hr race effort). Since I've been using a "structured" approach to running, I've never run by pace. It's next to useless on trails, on hills, in wind, and on snow. So I've never experienced the stresses you talk about. But when the snow goes out and / or I run flatter trails, I do run faster - at the same effort / HR / breathing intensity. In reading Allen's article (again), it looks like he's saying that his HRmax is about 190 and his MAF is 155 or about 81%. I wouldn't quarrel with the technique if that's what my numbers were. (I also remembered that there were a lot of questions asked there that never got answered.) But since I'm a bunch of years older and not conveniently where I could get (or afford) a test, I'm limited to a 126 MAF. Also the fudge factors seem to vary by article. This is where it loses credibility. Regular HR training provides some easy mechanisms to use to estimate where you should be - like breathing intensity. It's intuitive.
As far as the MAF training goes, it is not about running slow, but getting faster and faster at the same aerobic heart rate.
AKTrail replied: If you don't get faster by capping the HR at which you run or walk, then it is about running or hiking slowly. Most HR training books that I've used suggest NOT using HRM for anaerobic work because their responses are slowed. But I do base training most of the time anyway (up to 1-hr race effort).
Since I've been using a "structured" approach to running, I've never run by pace. It's next to useless on trails, on hills, in wind, and on snow. So I've never experienced the stresses you talk about. But when the snow goes out and / or I run flatter trails, I do run faster - at the same effort / HR / breathing intensity.
In reading Allen's article (again), it looks like he's saying that his HRmax is about 190 and his MAF is 155 or about 81%. I wouldn't quarrel with the technique if that's what my numbers were. (I also remembered that there were a lot of questions asked there that never got answered.) But since I'm a bunch of years older and not conveniently where I could get (or afford) a test, I'm limited to a 126 MAF. Also the fudge factors seem to vary by article. This is where it loses credibility. Regular HR training provides some easy mechanisms to use to estimate where you should be - like breathing intensity. It's intuitive.
On a personal basis, the only thing that has ever proven anything to me is a full experiment through all phases of a particular type of training. Experience. Otherwise, it's all an intellectual exercise. A merry go round of contradictory studies and methods and opinion. It would be arrogant and short-sighted of me to suggest that the way I train should be the way everyone else trains. I can say with complete confidence that if an athlete is breaking down physically or mentally, then adjustments in training, diet, or one's life have to be made that reduce overall stress. I have found that the principles I've learned in MAF training, especially the MAF test, are the best way for me to monitor the state of my aerobic system and avoid getting to the breakdown point.
AKTrail replied: Yep, and for many of us more traditional training has provided the running improvements and stress relief.
Chemical, mental, and physical serenity now. Peace --Jimmy
Chemical, mental, and physical serenity now.
Peace
--Jimmy
Something I wanted to add but not sure where, since the subject did come up, is that I view normal HR training zones like colors of a spectrum. It's a gradient, but certain zones get called different things (e.g. easy, blue) but where they differentiate from say, "general aerobic" or purple may be a bit fuzzy.
I just run by breathing intensity / talk test. (also now sure how to get rid of some of the blocks above)
PS: For perspective, my 1-hr race pace is around 12min/mi on rolling hills trails. "Easy" training run on something like that is probably around 15-18min/mi. Put bigger mountains in there and it gets slower. Cap my HR at 126bpm, and I probably would not be able to hike any local mountains at a reasonable speed where I wouldn't freeze or be carried off my mosquitoes.