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Help Becomming a Better Adaptive Runner Per Hudson (2:56 PR seeking 2:50) (Read 207 times)

Julia1971


    Thanks for linking to this.  I'm 5 weeks out from starting my next training cycle and might give this a try.  Good luck figuring out what you want to do!

     

    - The Champ  Wink

     

    For those that are interested, here's an awesome link from the thread that Julia recommended. The link itself was posted by LoveTheHalf, and is Greg McMillan's take on developing speed first based on his work with coach Gabriele Rosa

     

    http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/time-rethink-your-marathon-training-program?page=single

    You're too strong not to keep on keepin' on. - The Pips
    Yes, I am! - Gladys Knight

       

      You are right. Sorry, I didn't read the original post that carefully.

       

       

      I don't think you misunderstood at all, and I was just agreeing with your point to focus on the 5k and asking SIAR why he wasn't doing that, because I know he mentioned that recently in our user group. He is about to embark on a 20-week, mikeymike disgust-inducing training plan. Hopefully SIAR will clarify his plans. I wish Hudson would teach us how to adapt his principles to be able to focus in on a short specific segment when we already have a base established. I thought part of his whole thing was year round fitness and then key in on specific race endurance. Maybe I just need to read the book again.

       

      I read your blog post. Good stuff.

      So_Im_a_Runner


      Go figure

        Thanks again for all the info and insights everyone.  Basically, I'm taking two things from your responses:  1) It's not that I lack the speed to run a sub 2:50, it's that I need to improve the specific endurance to be able to carry that pace over the distance, and 2) it's probably not as important as I make it to look at marathon training strictly through the lens of an extended training cycle.

         

        Honestly, it's two that I struggle with the most.  I'm very good at executing a plan, and even making small adjustments to the training within the plan.  What I lack is the skills and/or confidence to operate outside of a plan.  I'm usually concerned that if I'm focused on something that isn't "marathon specific," then my marathon fitness is slipping away from me.  In reality, I know enough about running concepts to understand that as long as I'm keeping some mileage and including some good training, my marathon ability isn't going anywhere.

         

        With all that said, I'm thinking of going for the 4 week intro phase in the McMillan link I posted.  Basically, it's some twice weekly speed work with one session of repeats all under 400m, and another session with longer intervals up to 1 mile.  I really haven't done any work of that kind, so I think that training with a new stimulus will allow me to see a pretty quick benefit.  I'll do that little cycle with an eye towards Hudson, keeping his bi-weekly hills sprints in the mix while also getting in one progression run (Hudson's plan calls for two, but the McMillan cycle has two days of speed work).  Over those 4 weeks I'll hover the miles in the 70 mpw range, before then ramping up to the 80-110 range.  I'm also going to shoot for at least one 5k race about 4 weeks in, and then a 10k about 3-4 weeks after that.

         

        As I mentioned, I'm still going to rely on Hudson, but hopefully I can make some more changes to the workouts that are in the schedule by paying better attention to what systems I feel are lacking.  I'll likely have some more questions when I get to that point, so hopefully you guys can continue to give me good advice.  I'm also looking forward to reading McMillan's book that Zonykel recommended and am hoping that can help guide me too.

         

        Thanks again!

        PRs:  Marathon (2:49xx; '13)  Half (1:25xx; '12) 10k (40:26; '11) 5mi (29:23; '13) 5k (17:33; '13)

          I am glad that you have figured out your plan.

           

          I enjoyed reading Jeff's article. Particularly the stride rate x length makes me think more. I'd like to add another factor: running economy. Rate depends on your leg turnover rate and aerobic fitness. Mileage helps aerobic. Stride helps improving leg turnover rate and running economy. I am not sure if it helps improving stride length. It may more depend on your flexibility. Perhaps Yoga or certain stretches can help you improve that. Has anybody successfully practiced Yoga to improve the stride length?

          5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

          So_Im_a_Runner


          Go figure

            I am glad that you have figured out your plan.

             

            I enjoyed reading Jeff's article. Particularly the stride rate x length makes me think more. I'd like to add another factor: running economy. Rate depends on your leg turnover rate and aerobic fitness. Mileage helps aerobic. Stride helps improving leg turnover rate and running economy. I am not sure if it helps improving stride length. It may more depend on your flexibility. Perhaps Yoga or certain stretches can help you improve that. Has anybody successfully practiced Yoga to improve the stride length?

             

            Funny you mention yoga...I just did my first yoga for runners session last week.  I'll let you know if I see any results, but I'm guessing at just once a week, it's as much of a social activity as anything else.  That's not to say it wasn't hard though - I had quite a sweat going.  I worry about trying to intentionally increase stride length because of the potential to over-stride.  The common tip to think about extending stride length out the back and not the front should go a long way to keep that from happening.  I know this is probably contrary to what you believe, but I'm a big believer that running economy takes care of itself over time.  As one continues to run increasingly larger amounts, I really feel that the body finds the most efficient way for that individual to cover the distance.

            PRs:  Marathon (2:49xx; '13)  Half (1:25xx; '12) 10k (40:26; '11) 5mi (29:23; '13) 5k (17:33; '13)

            DoppleBock


              5:53 Paced 5 mile puts you borderline for the 6:30 paced marathon.

               

              I would think 8 weeks at 50-60 MPW working on speed 5k-10k.  You need fresher legs to run faster.

               

              8 weeks to ramp up mileage and swith to some longer tempos, while keeping faster running in diet.

               

              4 weeks to put it all together and race.

               

              3 or 4 x 10 minutes @ true HM pace should not be that scary?

               

              Last week:

              Wed - 6 miler easy recover day

              Thu - 6 miler with 6 striders and last mile @ LAT pace

              FR - 15 miles with 50 minutes @ 1/2 marathon pace.

               

              Fridays run was manageable, becasue I was fresh at the start of the run.

               

              I think you could be better off averaging 65-70 MPW and running you speed work outs strong and fresh

               

              I doubt that you don't have the "speed" to run 6:30s because 6:30s are not that fast. The issue is speed endurance. Your 5k is too slow. Take the summer, run mileage, and work on racing the 5k, get it down in the low 17s. That will improve your efficiency and also give you some useful racing skills.

               

              Choose whatever plan you like -- the issue is not the marathon plan, it's more about what skills you are trying to build.

              http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

              2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

               

              So_Im_a_Runner


              Go figure

                Dopple...thanks for the response.  I agree with looking at my 5 mile time as it's way more indicative of what my speed is right now.  Your comment about needing fresher legs to run faster is probably right on.  At some point last cycle all of my speed work was done on legs with a good amount of fatigue built into them.  I also agree that the 3or4 x 10min at HMP shouldn't be that bad, which is what had me questioning if some of my training leading up to it should have been altered.

                 

                The big thing for me is going to be finding the balance between speed and mileage.  I know that I can handle a pretty decent volume of running without injury.  Unfortunately, in the past, I haven't shown the ability to handle a lot of speed work while staying healthy.  I do think I train smarter now though (mostly meaning running my easy days easy and including recovery paced runs), and my body has probably made some adaptations over the last couple of years that should enable me to safely do more speed work.  I just have to trust that that will get me to a better marathon time.

                PRs:  Marathon (2:49xx; '13)  Half (1:25xx; '12) 10k (40:26; '11) 5mi (29:23; '13) 5k (17:33; '13)

                DoppleBock


                  Amen!

                   

                  goorun - Had a good system - He did one speed work out where he made sure his legs were fresh and one where tired legs were ok.

                   

                  90 MPW with 3 quality speed workouts > 120 MPW with 2 half ass crappy speed workouts ... as far as stress on your body.

                   

                  Also the speed while remaining healthy ~ Most people run the pace way too fast for the purpose of the workout.  I am one of them ~ I will end up pretty spent after a speed workout, instead of pleasently tired.  Then it takes 2 easy days instead of 1 to recover.

                   

                  The big thing for me is going to be finding the balance between speed and mileage.

                  http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                  2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                   

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