Beginners and Beyond

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Long SLOW Run (Read 455 times)

    Yeah, that's about what I was doing... 350+ per month with no speedwork.  My race times dropped like a rock.  Not sure what to say... others I know who've followed the 'RUN MORE' philosophy seem to confirm the hypothesis that running volume trumps intensity, but clearly there are outliers.

     

    Did your times drop right away, or was it a few months later that you reaped the benefits? I wonder if some people get slower when initially bumping up the mileage because they need time to acclimate, like you mentioned. BTW, I totally agree that easy pace is just easy pace, and there's no need to over think it.
    Longboat


    Letting off steam

      I agree with Matt on this: 

      • All else equal, more miles at a steady (easy) pace should improve ability to run fast.
      • For most of us, the potential benefits of more miles exceed potential gains from added speedwork / same miles.
      • To realize the benefit, one may have to come off the higher mileage for a while before racing (to eliminate residual tiredness). 
      • If one can do the extra miles with a balanced set of runs (including some speedwork), well... that's the trick we'd all like to perfect, isn't it?

      Neil

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Nearly back to 100% 6 months after Achilles surgery. Now at 35 50 mpw.

      Base building time!

      happylily


        Okay, tons of easy miles are better... But for those of us in the 50-70 mpw range, what should the % of easy miles be? 100%, 90%, 75%? Most runners train in that range. It is not realistic to think that a majority of runners will ever have the time, or desire, to build up to 80 miles over a number of weeks, and then hold that for 10 weeks... Maybe I could do it once in my lifetime, if it really became a priority of mine, but for a multi-marathon year, rare is the runner who will be willing to stay in that 80-100 range (I know some of you are doing it, but you still are the exception...)

        PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

        4 years racing, 14 marathons, 14 BQs     

        skygazer


          I was just thinking about the easy miles last night. Cool it got asked and answered by a variety of runners. I still have questions about it though. But my very short personal experience goes more in line w/ (more) miles brings more improvement than does (more) speedwork (note that I'm not against doing speedwork).

          skygazer


            Okay, tons of easy miles are better... But for those of us in the 50-70 mpw range, what should the % of easy miles be? 100%, 90%, 75%? Most runners train in that range. It is not realistic to think that a majority of runners will ever have the time, or desire, to build up to 80 miles over a number of weeks, and then hold that for 10 weeks... Maybe I could do it once in my lifetime, if it really became a priority of mine, but for a multi-marathon year, rare is the runner who will be willing to stay in that 80-100 range (I know some of you are doing it, but you still are the exception...)

             Good question!!


            Muddling through

              Yeah, that's about what I was doing... 350+ per month with no speedwork.  My race times dropped like a rock.  Not sure what to say... others I know who've followed the 'RUN MORE' philosophy seem to confirm the hypothesis that running volume trumps intensity, but clearly there are outliers.

               

              I've always avoided a strict perioic training schedule and liberally included speedwork all the time. With my limited talent and pushing sub-16:30 for 5K and sub-35:00 for 10K at the time while already training 50-60 mpw for 3 years, I wasn't in a situation where I was seriously lacking in endurance. I already had a couple sub-3:00 marathons to my credit as well. Had I been more concerned with trying to run a 2:45 marathon, the higher mileage might have made some sense. I also cut my racing teeth on shorter races then gradually applied that speed to longer races rather than jumping immediately to the HM and marathon as so many seem to do now. It was more a matter of "as my base increased, so did my racing distance" rather than "my racing distance is increasing so I better build my base". I was already running 50 mpw before my first race over 10K.

              2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race


              And in the end...

                Okay, tons of easy miles are better... But for those of us in the 50-70 mpw range, what should the % of easy miles be? 100%, 90%, 75%? Most runners train in that range. It is not realistic to think that a majority of runners will ever have the time, or desire, to build up to 80 miles over a number of weeks, and then hold that for 10 weeks... Maybe I could do it once in my lifetime, if it really became a priority of mine, but for a multi-marathon year, rare is the runner who will be willing to stay in that 80-100 range (I know some of you are doing it, but you still are the exception...)

                 

                This is where I'd lean toward what in well-established training programs like Pfitz and Daniels... just look at a typical program's weekly rotation and calculate the % of miles at MP or faster.  I'd be surprised to find more than 10%... and that might break out to 5% close to MP and 5% faster than MP.

                ------------------------

                The GITM is moot.

                MrNamtor


                DON'T TREAD ON ME

                  Thank you all, I have read every single post on here so far and am less sure about anything then I was before. Which is a very good thing as far as I'm concerned.

                   

                   

                  MattM: In your remarks, are you speaking primarily about marathons? I noticed that George brought up the fact that he was not just interested in marathons but also hm's 10ks and 5ks. How applicable are your remarks to these races?

                   

                  Lily: yeah i guess I'm talking about my 10 mile race pace. I don't plan on running any marathons in the near future. I would be very happy running a sub 1:35 HM  and a sub 21 minute 5k.  btw, your training reminds me of a good friend of mine, 55 yo marathoner, triathlete and iron man racer  who regularly runs marathons in under 3:15 on 35mpw training. Like you, he runs with more high intensity than long steady distance.


                  delicate flower

                    But my understanding is that slow running conditions you for speed work and that's why it makes you faster, sort of indirectly. Supposedly running long slow distance without speedwork can actually make you slower.

                     

                    You're running a lot of mileage now. What's your experience with this?

                     

                    I have not read all of the long replies to this thread, so my apologies if I am completely wrong here...

                     

                    I vary my runs.  Well, I do now anyway.  It's been my experience that the long slow runs build endurance, and the shorter faster runs build speed.  On race day, pull it all together to run far and fast.  I need the short speed runs to teach my legs how to move faster.  Long slow runs won't do that for me.  I spent most of 2012 running a lot of slower miles while just working on building a base and ignoring speedwork.  That worked wonders for my marathon time as my endurance was through the roof.  If I only wanted to run marathons, the long slow runs would be great for that.  It doesn't do anything for my 5K and 10K though.  Since my October marathon, I've been doing a steady amount of speedwork, and thus clobbered my 5K PR two weeks ago, and broke my 10K PR on a training run two days ago (I'm not counting it though). 

                     

                    Right now I am trying to run 50 miles per week consistently just to continue working on my base.  I want to keep that up for a few months so I can have a solid base before tackling a Pfitz plan for a fall marathon.  The major difference now though is that I am doing speedwork twice a week, while prior to November I had ignored it.           

                    roboknee.

                    happylily


                      Namtor, if you have been running most of your runs at the same fast pace all the time, I bet that you will see an almost immediate change if you run most of your miles slower from now on. I bet the one fast run a week will be faster than 8:00 pace... But I still think that 12:00 pace is much too slow for someone like you. It is true, though, that in the end, it does not matter much if you run 10:00 or 12:00 as easy pace during LRs. What matters is that you cover the distance. But if the pace is so slow for you that your gait is altered, then there is a problem. Like others said, that could be the reason why you had some pains after your LR at 12:00. I know myself that I drag my feet and I stop running straight and tall whenever I run too slowly. Then, I get shoulder and back pain and sometimes, I trip on my own feet. It's time to pick up the pace a bit when this happens.

                       

                      Here is a link to a response I once got from McMillan himself a few months ago, when he changed his easy/LR pace to something faster. http://forums.runnersworld.com/forums/runner-communities/beginners/mcmillans-paces-changed?plckForumPostOnPage=2

                       

                      Notice this part regarding slower runners (in which all of us here fit, btw):

                       

                      Third, for some runners, they have been running too slow all the time. The speedster types at the front of the pack have the problem of training too fast all the time but now we know that some runners at the middle to back of the pack have been training too slowly on too many of their runs. Some runs must be slow but some should be a bit quicker. So, the paces are a little faster for these runners BUT you must remember that these paces are for the running part since some runners are walking and running across their easy and long runs.  Don't let this be daunting. Just ease into it. Start picking up the pace a bit on a FEW (not all) runs and I bet you'll find that after a month or two, you'll see your average running pace for all your runs move into the new zones (and your fitness will see a boost).  

                      PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                              Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

                      4 years racing, 14 marathons, 14 BQs     


                      Bad Ass

                        I agree that 12mm is too slow for Namtor (heck, it's too slow for me), but I can never run the McMillan paces for easy runs.  I run 1mm slower than what McMillan says, if I remember his calculator. I used to run his paces and frankly, I'm faster now after I slowed them down.  Having said that, my weather is 80-100F still so if you factor temperature, maybe I am running the Mcmillan paces adjusted for weather, who knows.

                         

                        I do speedwork (right now I am not because I'm doing multiple marathons) but the easy runs should remain easy.  And although some of you believe we do keep them easy, most of us do not.

                        Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                        Next:  San Francisco Marathon

                        Blog

                        "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

                        happylily


                          I agree that 12mm is too slow for Namtor (heck, it's too slow for me), but I can never run the McMillan paces for easy runs.  I run 1mm slower than what McMillan says, if I remember his calculator. I used to run his paces and frankly, I'm faster now after I slowed them down.  Having said that, my weather is 80-100F still so if you factor temperature, maybe I am running the Mcmillan paces adjusted for weather, who knows.

                           

                          I do speedwork (right now I am not because I'm doing multiple marathons) but the easy runs should remain easy.  And although some of you believe we do keep them easy, most of us do not.

                           

                          In the end, though, what really matters is that what we do for ourselves works. You had your PR this year, D., and I had mine. We're both happy, so we should both continue what we've been doing. :-)

                          PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                                  Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

                          4 years racing, 14 marathons, 14 BQs     


                          Bad Ass

                            In the end, though, what really matters is that what we do for ourselves works. You had your PR this year, D., and I had mine. We're both happy, so we should both continue what we've been doing. :-)

                             

                            Of course.  However, you have to admit your experience is not the typical training experience.  I was talking about most of the runners.  I put you in a different category :-)

                            Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                            Next:  San Francisco Marathon

                            Blog

                            "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


                            Finally PRed!!!

                              I'm a slower runner who needs at least some faster running to run my best times. I ran my marathon PR in 2010 on an average of 40 mpw. In 2011 and 2012, I ran higher mileage but  slower times at all distances. Now, I had put on a few extra lbs, which were part of the problem. But when I first averaged 50 mpw for my 2012 marathon cycle, my legs were too tired and sore to do any faster running, and the result was a marathon about 23 min slower than my PR. Despite over 5 months around the 50 mpw level, I was not able to adapt in time. This fall, I very slowly increased the mpw from 35-40 up to 50, at a rate much, much slower than the oft-cited 10% rule. Now I'm back up to around 50 mpw, but I make sure to do intervals or a solid tempo run every week that I don't race.  Finally my times are slowly getting faster again. And of course, losing the extra weight has been helping too. 

                               

                              I will not increase the mpw again until I'm sure I can do so without any deterioration in pace of my quality runs. But then again, I'm a runner for whom endurance comes more naturally than speed. 

                              PRs: 5K: 22:31, 10K:46:43, 15K: 1:10:35, HM: 1:42:49, M: 3:38:20

                              jedigunnie26.2


                              BQ in 2013

                                I clarify my prior comment. I would say LSD should be at 1-2 mm slower than pace. I still think McM is too aggressive.

                                 

                                ^This. Easy is whatever easy is that day. McM paces ranges too aggressive IMO.

                                PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                                 

                                2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                                 

                                2013

                                Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                                Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                                Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                                 

                                Up Next:

                                Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                                RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                                Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

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