Beginners and Beyond

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Long SLOW Run (Read 455 times)

happylily


    Of course.  However, you have to admit your experience is not the typical training experience.  I was talking about most of the runners.  I put you in a different category :-)

     

    Thanks, but I don't really see it like that. Heidi is in a different category. Not me. I started slow and I got faster, after many marathon training cycles. Just a normal progression. Nothing special about it.

    PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

            Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

    4 years racing, 16 marathons, 16 BQs     


    And in the end...

      MattM: In your remarks, are you speaking primarily about marathons? I noticed that George brought up the fact that he was not just interested in marathons but also hm's 10ks and 5ks. How applicable are your remarks to these races?

       

       

      Nah... while many marathon runners will see improvement at shorter distance from a high volume training program I would say that it's not optimal training.  For shorter distance racing most will do better by incorporating higher intensity drills in their program. 

       

      In fact, *if* a runner can achieve high volume training with a small amount of higher intensity work thrown in, that's even better for the marathon.  The problem that I have seen repeated over and over are runners who try to up volume and maintain intensity... and then hit the training wall from fatigue, burnout, or injury.

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      The GITM is moot.

      MrNamtor


      DON'T TREAD ON ME

        yeah thanks Lily, Docket, Flippy et al.  for the advice on speed. I will definitely adjust my slow speed upward. I'll use McM as a guild and then if i find the pace too aggressive I can bring it down a notch.

         

        One thing i wonder about is the correct outlook on all this long slow distance in relation to other aspects of training. Many people who are experienced and well read runners assert that long slow distances by themselves will increase speed WITHOUT speedwork. Other equally experienced and well read runners adhere to the idea that lsd does not by itself increase speed but is rather building a conditioning foundation for speedwork, which is where you really get fast. Then others just think of it as two separate types of training that just sort of come together in race performance.

         

        I guess from a practical point of view none of this matters because i am going to do both slow running and speed work. But it would be helpful for me to have this sort of grip on it.

        MrNamtor


        DON'T TREAD ON ME

          Nah... while many marathon runners will see improvement at shorter distance from a high volume training program I would say that it's not optimal training.  For shorter distance racing most will do better by incorporating higher intensity drills in their program. 

           

          Is what you're saying valid for the half?


          Muddling through

             

            One thing i wonder about is the correct outlook on all this long slow distance in relation to other aspects of training. Many people who are experienced and well read runners assert that long slow distances by themselves will increase speed WITHOUT speedwork. Other equally experienced and well read runners adhere to the idea that lsd does not by itself increase speed but is rather building a conditioning foundation for speedwork, which is where you really get fast. Then others just think of it as two separate types of training that just sort of come together in race performance.

             

            I guess from a practical point of view none of this matters because i am going to do both slow running and speed work. But it would be helpful for me to have this sort of grip on it.

             

            You need to distinguish between speed and being able to hold a pace for a long time. Go run an all-out 400m. That gives you some idea of your speed. Running long slow distances is not going to have much effect on that. Now go run a 5K, a HM, and a marathon. At each distance you slowed down your pace. Do you need to improve your speed or your ability to maintain a given pace for a longer time in order to improve at those distances? The longer your race the more your endurance and your LT are the limiting factors, not your speed.

            2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race


            And in the end...

              Is what you're saying valid for the half?

               

              Yep.  I think so.

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              The GITM is moot.


              And in the end...

                You need to distinguish between speed and being able to hold a pace for a long time. Go run an all-out 400m. That gives you some idea of your speed. Running long slow distances is not going to have much effect on that. Now go run a 5K, a HM, and a marathon. At each distance you slowed down your pace. Do you need to improve your speed or your ability to maintain a given pace for a longer time in order to improve at those distances? The longer your race the more your endurance and your LT are the limiting factors, not your speed.

                 

                Exactly right.  Running volume enables you maintain faster paces for longer durations.  The net is you get faster 'at that distance' but not necessarily faster sprinting speed.

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                The GITM is moot.

                meaghansketch


                  yeah thanks Lily, Docket, Flippy et al.  for the advice on speed. I will definitely adjust my slow speed upward. I'll use McM as a guild and then if i find the pace too aggressive I can bring it down a notch.

                   

                  One thing i wonder about is the correct outlook on all this long slow distance in relation to other aspects of training. Many people who are experienced and well read runners assert that long slow distances by themselves will increase speed WITHOUT speedwork. Other equally experienced and well read runners adhere to the idea that lsd does not by itself increase speed but is rather building a conditioning foundation for speedwork, which is where you really get fast. Then others just think of it as two separate types of training that just sort of come together in race performance.

                   

                  I guess from a practical point of view none of this matters because i am going to do both slow running and speed work. But it would be helpful for me to have this sort of grip on it.

                   

                  I think there is no one 'correct outlook' -- or there is and we haven't found out quite what it is yet.  As you say, there are great coaches who advocate something closer to a high volume, low intensity approach, and great coaches who advocate a lower volume, higher intensity approach, and great performances are achieved on many different types of training.  It is difficult to even figure out what works for us as individuals.  I did a period of training where I just worked on volume, no speedwork, and I (seemingly) didn't improve at all.  I followed it by a period of more 'balanced' training (intervals, tempos, OK volume but not great).  I saw very good results.  Does that tell me that I do well on a more balanced approach or does it tell me that building a base of volume gave me the endurance to handle a decent amount of speedwork without injury, and ultimately helped me improve more than if I hadn't done it? 

                   

                  Personally I think the key is to try different things and try to find out what works for you.  Read about different methods, give them a try.  Figure out what your strengths and weaknesses are.  If your weakness is endurance your training should be tilted towards that; if your weakness is speed tilt your training in that direction.  If you're not improving switch it up.  Try a period of nothing but long slow miles.  Try a highly periodized (a la Lydiard) program.  Try a speed-then-endurance approach.  Try an endurance-then-speed approach.

                   

                  I think most of us are limited as much or more by time than by other factors.  I would love to try running 70 or more easy miles a week but on my schedule (and at my speed) I am not having success at making that happen.  Running what I have time for and incorporating speedwork is what is making the most sense for me right now, even if it's not the most optimal method. 

                  Up next: Front Runners New York LGBT Pride 5-mile  06/28 |  NYRR Team Championships: Women (5M) 08/02

                  Goal race: NYCRUNS Haunted Island 10K 10/25


                  delicate flower

                    I'm a slower runner...

                     

                    The PR times in your signature don't look at that slow to me!  They are comparable to my PR times in those distances, and I like to think I am faster than average.  Cool

                    proud sherpa

                    Hipfan


                    Proud Calgarian

                      I'm with you, except for one thing: I don't believe in that wide a gap between your paces. For example, let's say my tempo is 7:20 pace and my MP is 8:00 pace. Based on that, my easy will be anywhere between 8:05 and 9:30, depending on how I feel that day, and that includes recovery pace as well. For ME, it works and it's also in accordance with the paces McMillan gives me to work with. I have long ago stopped running miles slower than 10:00 pace. Not because I don't want to, but I really do not need to. And if I really did, for some extraordinary reason ( like I'm sick, or I ran an ultra the day before), I'd take a day off instead of running too slow for ME.

                       

                      P.S. The paces were just examples. I have nothing against a 10:00 pace, or even a 12:00 pace...

                       

                      +1

                      When I was marathon training with a coach all summer, she would get very upset if someone referred to their LR as a "Long Slow Run". As she put it, "Each run has a specified range of where you should be and while you don't go too fast for your long run, you don't run it slower than your recovery pace".

                       

                      The running gag was that anyone who referred to the LR as a Long SLOW Run would be banished and forced to work out with the Running Room (and their stupid 10:1 plan!)

                      2014 Goals and PRs:

                      5k - 17:59 (18:17);  10k - 37:00 (36:42);   HM - 1:21:59 (1:24:21);   FM - whatever (3:05:46)

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