RunningAHEAD - Topic: Low HR training & diet

RER

posted: 4/25/2008 at 4:20 PM
modified: 4/25/2008 at 4:26 PM

Because the foods we eat directly affect our training and racing, I thought this might be a good thread. Low HR training has a number of important factors associated with it, including fat burning, getting faster, building the aerobic system, general good health and others, and the diet has as much, if not more, influence. I think that the diet is so important it can negate many of the positive effects obtained from proper training. Maffetone discussed a lot of dietary issues in his books and articles, and updated articles can be found on his website (www.philmaffetone.com). But I come from my own experience as a professional and a long time runner (and triathlete). Seems like some of you are more up to date on his material than I am, so please chime in. I think one of the biggest problem with many athletes is they don't eat enough healthy food (and eat too much unhealthy food). Let's not debate "what is healthy food" because it's clear; there is good food (natural food) and bad food (unnatural). What types and ratios of good food we eat is very individual. Refined carbohydrates may be biggest detriment to fat-burning and building a great aerobic base. DavidD

Ace8

posted: 4/25/2008 at 5:41 PM

Let me throw some things I try to do out there and you guys can comment on whether or not I am on the right track, and/or add to my list: * Choose whole grain over white processed / refined carb products * Stay as natural as possible * Choose good fats (i.e. nuts, olive oil, omega3's). * Keep simple sugars (i.e. fruit) to 10% or less of your daily carb intake * take it easy on meat products, and fish rules over all others. * Eat plenty of vegetables. * Take a multivitamin every day

bdags

posted: 4/25/2008 at 6:05 PM

It seems that I need a minimum of 3000 calories a day to maintain my weight. Some days I eat much more than that. I am aware that I need to reduce my carb intake. How is it possible to maintain my current weight if I reduce my carb intake significantly?

RER

posted: 4/25/2008 at 7:21 PM

Quote from Ace8 on 4/25/2008 at 5:41 PM:

Let me throw some things I try to do out there and you guys can comment on whether or not I am on the right track, and/or add to my list: * Choose whole grain over white processed / refined carb products * Stay as natural as possible * Choose good fats (i.e. nuts, olive oil, omega3's). * Keep simple sugars (i.e. fruit) to 10% or less of your daily carb intake * take it easy on meat products, and fish rules over all others. * Eat plenty of vegetables. * Take a multivitamin every day

Almost all "whole grain" products are just over-processed, high glycemic -- so not really different than plain white flour. The good fats are important. The old names "simple" and "complex" carbs are not good terms. Simple really refers to non-starch foods. So all fruits and veggies are simple carbs, as is honey. These are the best carbs to eat. Their sugar is more quickly available for energy as opposed to so-called "complex" carbs like bread, rice, white sugar, which must first be digested. If you often are bloated and gassy, that's the undigested carb you're eating.

RER

posted: 4/25/2008 at 7:25 PM

Quote from bdags on 4/25/2008 at 6:05 PM:

It seems that I need a minimum of 3000 calories a day to maintain my weight. Some days I eat much more than that. I am aware that I need to reduce my carb intake. How is it possible to maintain my current weight if I reduce my carb intake significantly?

First, get rid of the G-aid logo Big grin

(couldn't help myself on that one) Protein contains the same amount of calories as carbs, and fat contains twice the amount. So you won't have any problem if you're eating good food. I know Maffetone says not to weight yourself, but I like a weekly weight check to see how my muscle mass is doing. I don't strive for a particular weight, but I do relate to what my weight is when I'm feeling and running my best.

felter2468

posted: 4/26/2008 at 9:46 PM

Rer, Could you explain in detail the difference between the carbs that help fat burning and the carbs that may inhibit? Possible to get examples of what carbs to eat and what carbs to stay clear from? Thanks John

BeeRunB

posted: 4/27/2008 at 10:24 AM

Dave, What have you seen in your work with people in terms of eating carbs during a run? Eating before a run? Also, what about the research that says you need carbs and protein in a 4:1 ratio right after a run? Thanks. --Jimmy

RER

posted: 4/27/2008 at 12:05 PM

Quote from felter2468 on 4/26/2008 at 9:46 PM:

Rer, Could you explain in detail the difference between the carbs that help fat burning and the carbs that may inhibit? Possible to get examples of what carbs to eat and what carbs to stay clear from? Thanks John

The easiest way to view the carb issue is by glycemic index. Carbs with high glycemic index trigger larger amounts of insulin. The result is we convert more of the carbs to stored fat, reduce fat-burning and lower blood sugar more quickly after a meal. High glycemic carbs include white flour products (almost all breads, cereals, etc.), white sugar (sucrose) so most 'energy' bars and drinks, dried fruit, maple syrup products (maltose sugars) most potatoes and some fruits (watermelon, pineapple, large bananas) and fruit juice. That leaves the carbs in almost all vegetables and fruits, whole grains (real whole grains which are not very tasty to most people), and honey. These are moderate to low glycemic.

RER

posted: 4/27/2008 at 1:00 PM

Quote from BeeRunB on 4/27/2008 at 10:24 AM:

Dave, What have you seen in your work with people in terms of eating carbs during a run? Eating before a run? Also, what about the research that says you need carbs and protein in a 4:1 ratio right after a run? Thanks. --Jimmy

If people build a great aerobic base, there should be ample energy (from fat) during even long training runs. Those who need more energy during long races should drink a simple carb such as fruit juice or honey water, about 6%. I don't recall what Maffetone suggests, but I know we agree on much of this topic. The bottom line: experiment during training so you know how things work. Eating during a run should be avoided unless the event is an ultra distance. Then, eating simple carbs such as fruit is best. Remember, it takes a good amount of energy to digest complex carbs such as bread and white sugar products, energy you can use for your muscles instead. These products also cause gas. Before a workout is also individual, but comfort should be one of the guidelines. I don't eat any high glycemic foods, so I run, bike or swim after a fruit smoothie, usually within a half hour. The worse thing to do is eat or drink high glycemic foods since it can reduce fat-burning. 4:1? I don't like magic formulas. Consider that foods digest at different rates based on time of day, stress, how much you chew them, the type of carbs and protein, etc., etc. So if it's 4:1 on your plate, who knows what it becomes after you eat it. If your aerobic system is working well, you should not need food right after a run. Right after a race or anaerobic effort is different - some simple carbs are the best (but immediately afterwards), such as fruit juice. I started using Maffetone's recipe for home made energy bars, and they're great. I eat them on long workout days and in between my run bike days.

GMoney

posted: 4/27/2008 at 2:40 PM

Where does pizza and beer fit into all of this? (ha ha)

slowgino

posted: 4/27/2008 at 7:25 PM

Quote from RER on 4/27/2008 at 1:00 PM:

...If your aerobic system is working well, you should not need food right after a run. Right after a race or anaerobic effort is different ...

What's a good way to determine when to eat/drink food after a training run? I'm never (almost never) hungry after a training run, but I've heard presentations by nutritionists emphasizing the "eat x and y within z minutes of finishing your run..." etc. I've tried that, but I still have the nagging feeling that eating when I feel no need to will be counterproductive to training my fat-burning metabolism. I said "almost never" hungry after a training run, but a possible exception is a 3 1/4 hour run after 18 hours with no caloric intake a few weeks ago. The chilli at the food booth in the park smelled so good that I just had to have a bowl (with cheese.) My training runs are all easy or "easier", where easy is the point at which my RER (is this a pun?) is ready to start going above 0.76, and is also the point at which my max "fat Calories burned per hour" happens. So even in a 3 hour training run, I'm burning less than 400 Calories of carbs. Is it ok to do as I feel, and wait a while before eating or drinking any "food"? I have the feeling at the end of a training run that my body is perfectly fine just continuing to do what the metabolism has been doing during the run, and it doesn't need a bunch of "food" to take it out of that mode. Also, am I doing a bad thing by going for a run when I haven't eaten for a while? I often do 2 - 3 hour training runs when I have not had any caloric intake for e.g. 18 hours... Thanks for any feedback you can give me, Gino

BeeRunB

posted: 4/28/2008 at 12:53 PM

As far as my own diet. I use a 60% carb, 35% protein, 15% fat mix. I use Calorie Count Plus to keep track. If I go lower to 55% and below, my performance starts to suffer. Just something I noticed. I run 50-70 miles per week. The carbs I eat are probably 95% complex carbs like apples, bananas (after runs), spinach, tomatoes, veggies, brown rice, high-fiber whole wheat pasta and bread, oatmeal and high fiber shredded wheat cereal. I allow myself 100% whole wheat Aak-maak crackers as snacks (with almond butter), and a yogurt pop as a dessert. I do have ice cream on occasion because what would life be like without ice cream? Ice cream is necessary for mental well being. Proteins and fat come from eggs, walnuts, almond butter, tofu, chicken, fish, and olive oil. Eggs is the main protein source, as I usually only eat chicken and fish on the weekends. I use egg whites mostly and do a few whole eggs a week. I take 2-4 grams of fish oil daily. I drink lots of fresh black, organic coffee. I don't consider this a vice, but a healthy thing to do. Plus, I love it. I have absolutely no trans fat, high fructose corn syrup, artificial sweeteners, or monkey brains in my diet. I eat organic fruits as well. This is what works for me. I feel healthy, full of energy, and my performances seem to be doing fine when I am fit. My MAF tests suggest that my fat-burning has increased. Doesn't mean this will work for you. --Jimmy

RER

posted: 4/29/2008 at 11:37 AM

Quote from slowgino on 4/27/2008 at 7:25 PM:

What's a good way to determine when to eat/drink food after a training run? I'm never (almost never) hungry after a training run, but I've heard presentations by nutritionists emphasizing the "eat x and y within z minutes of finishing your run..." etc. I've tried that, but I still have the nagging feeling that eating when I feel no need to will be counterproductive to training my fat-burning metabolism. I said "almost never" hungry after a training run, but a possible exception is a 3 1/4 hour run after 18 hours with no caloric intake a few weeks ago. The chilli at the food booth in the park smelled so good that I just had to have a bowl (with cheese.) My training runs are all easy or "easier", where easy is the point at which my RER (is this a pun?) is ready to start going above 0.76, and is also the point at which my max "fat Calories burned per hour" happens. So even in a 3 hour training run, I'm burning less than 400 Calories of carbs. Is it ok to do as I feel, and wait a while before eating or drinking any "food"? I have the feeling at the end of a training run that my body is perfectly fine just continuing to do what the metabolism has been doing during the run, and it doesn't need a bunch of "food" to take it out of that mode. Also, am I doing a bad thing by going for a run when I haven't eaten for a while? I often do 2 - 3 hour training runs when I have not had any caloric intake for e.g. 18 hours... Thanks for any feedback you can give me, Gino

We really need to go by how we feel, with common sense and basic nutrition. No eating for 18 hours seems rather unhealthy. I don't have the need to eat right after my aerobic workouts, although my day contains six small meals so I'm never hungry. Following an anaerobic workout or race is where nutrition can help quickly replace lost glycogen - so some liquid carb (fruit juice works best for most people) right after you finish.

RER

posted: 4/29/2008 at 11:47 AM

Quote from BeeRunB on 4/28/2008 at 12:53 PM:

As far as my own diet. I use a 60% carb, 35% protein, 15% fat mix. I use Calorie Count Plus to keep track. If I go lower to 55% and below, my performance starts to suffer. Just something I noticed. I run 50-70 miles per week. The carbs I eat are probably 95% complex carbs like apples, bananas (after runs), spinach, tomatoes, veggies, brown rice, high-fiber whole wheat pasta and bread, oatmeal and high fiber shredded wheat cereal. I allow myself 100% whole wheat Aak-maak crackers as snacks (with almond butter), and a yogurt pop as a dessert. I do have ice cream on occasion because what would life be like without ice cream? Ice cream is necessary for mental well being. Proteins and fat come from eggs, walnuts, almond butter, tofu, chicken, fish, and olive oil. Eggs is the main protein source, as I usually only eat chicken and fish on the weekends. I use egg whites mostly and do a few whole eggs a week. I take 2-4 grams of fish oil daily. I drink lots of fresh black, organic coffee. I don't consider this a vice, but a healthy thing to do. Plus, I love it. I have absolutely no trans fat, high fructose corn syrup, artificial sweeteners, or monkey brains in my diet. I eat organic fruits as well. This is what works for me. I feel healthy, full of energy, and my performances seem to be doing fine when I am fit. My MAF tests suggest that my fat-burning has increased. Doesn't mean this will work for you. --Jimmy

This sounds good. I don't eat that much carb (no wheat) and only whole eggs. Just a clarification: fruits and vegetables are considered simple carbs because most of the natural sugars are separate (glucose, fructose as monosaccharides) and readily absorbed and used for energy. The rice, tofu and bread (and sugar in ice cream) are complex carbs because their sugars are glued together (as starch and disaccharides) and require digestion to use them for energy.

BeeRunB

posted: 4/29/2008 at 12:02 PM
modified: 4/29/2008 at 12:04 PM

Apples are a little less harsh on the blood sugar, especially when eaten after a meal. Actually, the last thing I eat everyday is an organic apple. I was having problems with reflux and irritated esophagus, and just by eating apples with lunch and after the last meal, and switching to black, organic coffee--it is gone. No reflux, no irritation. I eat the apple in its entirety (except the stem and sticker). I drink the coffee completely like the beanpire that I am. --Jimmy

Low HR Training

Low HR training & diet (Read 966 times)