Bacon Party!
Buzzie - are you going to share some of the muddy pig pictures with us?
Just for you, Flower...
bob and weave. bob and weave.
Liz
pace sera, sera
Nice pics, Buzz!
Flower - No, I don't eat oatmeal when I'm running, just for breakfast before. And I have to give it time to settle. I, unfortunately, have a very touchy stomach. Sometimes the oatmeal makes me a bit nauseous, but I eat it anyway since it's a good gut filler.
Leslie Living and Running Behind the Redwood Curtain -------------
Trail Runner Nation
Sally McCrae-Choose Strong
Bare Performance
Happy
_
Questions:
How long does my long-run need to be in preparation for a 40mile trail run? Is the length of the long run or the frequency of the long run more important than the total weekly/monthly mileage? Is is more important to train on trails that are similar to the race-day-trails than it is to run slightly longer on less challenging terrain? How would you approach this? Is it better to attempt back-to-backs than it is to run longer than 22 miles in a single run?
When you try to answer the above questions please have in mind, that I am not trying to improve on my time (for the 40-miler); it is my goal to complete the distance at a pace that I find reasonable while feeling decent - hopefully not having to walk the last 10 miles (my longest ever is a 50K).
Back-to-backs do not currently seem possible for me as I have some tendon inflammation and pain to recover from after a long run. I usually take 2-3 days before I can run again. (I wish I had shoes that support me better). Walking is an option. Or perhaps running a distance (how far?) the day before the long run. I usually don't run the day before the long-run in order to feel rested and fresh for the long run. Any thoughts? Please, share your experience and make suggestions - I need a little help to figure out how to train in this last month before the 40 mile run.
Re: Shoes
I've been loving my Brooks Cascadia trail shoes - they are light and flexible, low to the ground (heel) and have good traction and some cushion. However, I think the Cascadia may not be supportive enough and too low in the heel for me. I've never tried inserts - any experience, suggestions?
Thinking of trying a Mizuno Trail shoe instead - do you like your Mizunos? How is the hight of the heel versus the forefoot? Is it well cushioned in the heel? Does it have a wide toe box?
I, unfortunately, have a very touchy stomach. Sometimes the oatmeal makes me a bit nauseous, but I eat it anyway since it's a good gut filler.
I, unfortunately, have a very touchy stomach.
Sometimes the oatmeal makes me a bit nauseous, but I eat it anyway since it's a good gut filler.
Leslie, it's hard to imagine how much you suffer due to your touchy stomach. Mine doesn't always behave but most of the time it's cooperating. As you know, I have many food intolerances and I adhere to relatively strict dietary "rules" in my choice of foods. If I step outside of the safe zone I risk becoming sick - this being sick thing is not funny so I almost always stay well within the borders of my safe zone. A lot of people suffer from digestive problems for reasons that are not known or easily diagnosed. Trial and error is often the only way to find what works - and that's what you are doing.
I am stepping outside of what you asked for and/or need with the following unsolicited advice - ignore all of it if you don't care for it. I will not be offended.
I have absolutely no way to know if a gluten free diet would help you but it might be worth an experiment. Many people find their problems disappear or become much less severe when w/o gluten. It's a difficult thing to do for most people since gluten is involved in all things baked. I notice you eat pretzels on your runs - certainly a gluten bomb. The sources of carbohydrate that are gluten free involve rice (rice crackers), potatoes, sweet potatoes, some rice pastas, all fresh fruit, all fresh vegetables, legumes and other root vegetables, also tree nuts and peanuts. In other words there are many ways to get carbohydrates w/o ingesting gluten - it just takes time to change habits and find products that appeal and taste good.
Oatmeal should not nauseate you, should it?!! I use Uncle Bob's Red Mill gluten free oats (no instant oats with lots of fillers).
Leslie, it's hard to imagine how much you suffer due to your touchy stomach. Mine doesn't always behave but most of the time it's cooperating. As you know, I have many food intolerances and I adhere to relatively strict dietary "rules" in my choice of foods. If I step outside of the safe zone I risk becoming sick - this being sick thing is not funny so I almost always stay well within the borders of my safe zone. A lot of people suffer from digestive problems for reasons that are not known or easily diagnosed. Trial and error is often the only way to find what works - and that's what you are doing. I am stepping outside of what you asked for and/or need with the following unsolicited advice - ignore all of it if you don't care for it. I will not be offended. I have absolutely no way to know if a gluten free diet would help you but it might be worth an experiment. Many people find their problems disappear or become much less severe when w/o gluten. It's a difficult thing to do for most people since gluten is involved in all things baked. I notice you eat pretzels on your runs - certainly a gluten bomb. The sources of carbohydrate that are gluten free involve rice (rice crackers), potatoes, sweet potatoes, some rice pastas, all fresh fruit, all fresh vegetables, legumes and other root vegetables, also tree nuts and peanuts. In other words there are many ways to get carbohydrates w/o ingesting gluten - it just takes time to change habits and find products that appeal and taste good. Oatmeal should not nauseate you, should it?!! I use Uncle Bob's Red Mill gluten free oats (no instant oats with lots of fillers).
Leslie,
I eat oatmeal several times a week for breakfast, but if I have it right before a long run, either for breakfast or as a late night snack, it always caused me issues. It's almost like it fills my stomach up TOO well and won't let the water or anything else make it through. I've switched to a bagel w/ Nutella and either strawberries or sliced bananas on top and that does really well for me when paired with much coffee.
I have tremendous stomach issues in general, and I haven't perfected the food thing yet either. I also have trouble with pretzels on a run. Orange slices always do really, really well. Bananas are iffy on the run and I think it's dependent on how ripe they are. Cookies are usually ok. I love the salty potatoes. Hammer gels, Cliff Shot Bloks, and the cherry bomb ones (eGel?) work great for me but Gu and Cliff Gus don't at all. Everyone is an experiment of one and you'll get the pattern down after a while.
I have a
Questions: How long does my long-run need to be in preparation for a 40mile trail run? Is the length of the long run or the frequency of the long run more important than the total weekly/monthly mileage? Is is more important to train on trails that are similar to the race-day-trails than it is to run slightly longer on less challenging terrain? How would you approach this? Is it better to attempt back-to-backs than it is to run longer than 22 miles in a single run? When you try to answer the above questions please have in mind, that I am not trying to improve on my time (for the 40-miler); it is my goal to complete the distance at a pace that I find reasonable while feeling decent - hopefully not having to walk the last 10 miles (my longest ever is a 50K). Back-to-backs do not currently seem possible for me as I have some tendon inflammation and pain to recover from after a long run. I usually take 2-3 days before I can run again. (I wish I had shoes that support me better). Walking is an option. Or perhaps running a distance (how far?) the day before the long run. I usually don't run the day before the long-run in order to feel rested and fresh for the long run. Any thoughts? Please, share your experience and make suggestions - I need a little help to figure out how to train in this last month before the 40 mile run. Re: Shoes I've been loving my Brooks Cascadia trail shoes - they are light and flexible, low to the ground (heel) and have good traction and some cushion. However, I think the Cascadia may not be supportive enough and too low in the heel for me. I've never tried inserts - any experience, suggestions? Thinking of trying a Mizuno Trail shoe instead - do you like your Mizunos? How is the hight of the heel versus the forefoot? Is it well cushioned in the heel? Does it have a wide toe box?
I should probably know this, but which 40 mile race are you doing? I have only completed 50K as well, and that always has plenty of walking involved, so this is not the voice of experience. (I'm hoping to do 50-60 at the 12 hour this weekend, although that's going to be fairly flat. I don't normally train on flat, so we'll see how my muscles respond to that.)
Well, without knowing what race you're doing, here's how I would approach it...I like to run 6 days a week, with about 50% of my volume coming from 5 of those days and about 50% coming from the long run. I think that overall mileage will help to support your long run, and if you're having to wait 2-3 days before you can run again after your long run, you might have to adjust that to maybe 60 or 70% on other days and 30-40% for your long run. I hurt a lot more from my long run when I don't have the mileage to back it up. I like to err on the side of hillier and more technical but it shouldn't matter which if it gives you time on your feet.
Speaking of which, what's your expected completion time for the 40 miler? That might help drive how long your run needs to be. I would think that a single longer run would be more beneficial than a back to back at that distance but others who've run further will know better than I do.
I usually run about 2 miles the day before my long run at almost recovery slow speed, just to stay a little bit loose. I always run at least 3 miles the day after a long run. It hurts. Sometimes there's yelping and mild cursing involved, but I think it really helps. If I were in too much pain to run, I would at least go on a 3 mile walk or hike.
Hope that helps...but like I said, I have no real experience at that distance so you won't hurt my feelings if you disregard everything
Flower - I'll chime in on the 40-mile thing when I have more time to absorb what you and Jen have posted.
Re foods. I used to have a stomach ulcer, and although that has healed, things can still be a problem. I also had my gall bladder removed last year, which is why I can't do peanut butter or fig newtons anymore when running. Not sure why they don't bother me when I'm not running, but that's neither here or there.
Flower - Gluten. My co-worker is trying a gluten-free diet to see if it helps her digestion, and this may be a good thing to try for running for me. Thanks for bringing that up.
Jen, I had some Bob's Red Mill a couple of weekends ago with blueberries before Hagg and it seemed to sit okay. I just need to go some for myself and give it a try.
Bananas - I have to be careful and not ingest too many of these when running 'cause they cause bloat.
This weekend I'll be trying the turkey and avo sandwich again (200 calories per sandwich) and the chicken soup. Both send down really well last Sunday. Saturday, I felt like I could've drank a ton of chicken broth, and my friend said I was probably low on salt. Will watch that more closely this upcoming weekend.
Sounds like you have had plenty of issues with your digestive system - an ulcer and removal of gall bladder; not minor in the least. Stick with the turkey/avo sandwich and the chicken broth for now since you know they work well. I think that's great! Yes, please let me know what you think about preparing for 40 miles.
___
Jen, thank you for your help. I used to be able to run 5-6 days per week a few years ago but I've been dealing with too much injury to keep it up. The last half year and a little bit have been pretty good and I am now more able to train fairly consistently. The left heel/achilles inflammation is the only problem right now. I try to give it time to recover so the inflammation cools off - I don't think it ever goes away completely. I just keep it in check the best I can. I may have to try some more supportive/cushioned trail shoes to see what kind of change would result from that. I thought I would have been a little less hurt from running the long run in my road shoes (Mizuno Rider) but today the sore spot is rather tender to the touch. I walked for an hour tonight to loosen up and get the blood flowing through all the muscles. Tomorrow I will attempt a run/walk recovery workout - play it by ear.
It is my goal to run 40 miles in Woods Ferry (Ultraterri series). I think realistically I will have to stay away from attempting 50 miles, which had originally been my goal. I don't have any 50Ks or any other long races/events leading into it. Myrtle Beach Marathon was supposed to have been my longest preparation run for Lynch's Wood - I could attempt to run a marathon length long run in training. Should I? I am afraid it is going to tear me down more than it is going to build me up. Looking back and remembering some of the advice Chris gave me a while back I need to make the long run the cornerstone of my training - not think about the pace for the long run, but time spent on my feet. That's why I was working on staying out there running more than 4 hours yesterday - it's not previously been possibly to carve out time for a long-run of that dimension before but I finally went for 4 hours and 45 minutes. It was a good experience that helped build my confidence.
Jen, I think I will try to work on getting a shortish easy run in the day before the long run and then see how it affects the long run. My heel/achilles may be able to handle that as long as I give it time to recover after the long run.
I feel this problem holds me back beacuse I am otherwise quite pleased with how my running has been going. It may not be a bad thing that there is something that holds me back - I tend to become very enthusiastic and train way too hard if I am super healthy. However, I do look forward to clearing the hurdle of getting this last trouble spot to vanish.
I'm going to have to give you my perspective from training for my upcoming 50-miler 'cause that's the only thing i can base my opinions on.
Get out of any mindset of "40-miler, that's only 9 miles longer than a 50k!" Those 9 miles can really make a difference, especially depending on how you're feeling at the end of the 50k. And in order to get a true feeling of the fatigue you will feel, I think back-to-back LRs are important. The total mileage will mimic the distance you will run on race day. I also believe it's important to run on terrain that's as close to the actual race terrain as possible. If the race trail is really hilly and you've only been running on fairly level ground, it's going to suck. As an example:
AR50 is basically flat and for the most part on pavement for the first 26+ miles, then it starts to climb, and at the end there's a huge climb. My Saturday runs - the first X-number of miles are on a paved road. The last X-number of miles are on trail with a lot of climbing at the end so that my legs get used to those conditions.
Time on feet is very important. There's a big difference between a 3- or 4-hour long run and a 10-hr race run. When I first got into training for ultras, my coach had me training by distance instead of time and I just about died on my first 50k. My longest training run had been 3.5 hrs. My first 50k - 8.75 hrs. I and my body had no idea what to expect. You don't want the last 10 miles to be a death march.
How often you should run - There are lots of different opinions on that. For a 50k, I run 3 times a week, strength train/alternate cardio 2 days a week, and rest 2 days. For this upcoming race, I've been running 4 days a week, alternate cardio 1, strength 2, and rest 2. I rest Friday before my weekend LRs and Monday afterward. I'm 44 years old. I don't recover as well as I did when I was in my 20s, 30s (not that I did anything physical then.)
If you're having inflammation problems in your foot, it's not going to get better by continuing to run on it (personal opinion). I don't know if you've had it checked out, but if it's been that persistent, maybe you should. Also, do you ever walk around barefoot? You may want to consider strength training your feet. It may not be a matter of needing a more cushioned shoe (which can bring on its own set of problems), but of strengthening your feet. I get out of my shoes as much as possible, and have ordered a pair of Nike Frees (what's called a "minimalist" shoe) that I plan on working my way into so as to mimic barefoot running. I've been reading on the benefits of BF running and am pretty close to being totally sold on it.
Back to LRs - I worked my way up to the Hagg Lake 50k, which will be my longest training run before AR50. My longest LRs were 22/18 (usually it's 24/18), I had about 1.5 weeks of taper leading up to Hagg and one cut back week after, but in prep for AR50 am now running (including last weekend): 24/16, 26/18, 28/16, 20/10 (I think the last is 20/10). My total weekend LRs will add up to 44 miles, just 6 shy of 50, which is where I usually am at before a 50k (6 or 7miles short of the target race length).
I don't know if any of this helps, but suffice to say I am a proponent of getting the time on your feet and running as close as possible to the same kind of terrain you'll be on race day.
The Quote function doesn't work for me so I will just respond. First of all, you've put a lot of work and thought into your response and I appreciate it!!
Get out of any mindset of "40-miler, that's only 9 miles longer than a 50k!"
I am not in that mindset. I have a lot of respect for the distance and the accumulated fatigue and wear and tear on the body.
Sounds like the ideal preparation for the difficulty of your race. I wish I could find near-by trails that are similar to those of the race. I am making an effort to move more of my long-run training onto trails that are more like the race conditions than my regular easier flatter trails. I am gradually transitioning into this.
I hear you - my first 50K took 7hr27min and I was pretty well spent at the end. Before that I had never gone any longer than 5.5 hours but that particular time I felt I was ready to take on a full 50K. I knew I had to start very conservatively and try to conserve as much energy as possible for the last 10 miles of the run. It became a very good experience - no death march or anything even close to that.
I would like to add more time to my long training run - did 4 hr 45 min last time - but I think I am more inclined right now to attempt a type of back-to-back that has a shorter run on the first day followed by a longer run on the second day. I am ready to take on this challenge and I feel it would help me.
Speaking of time spent on your feet: Last long run I did I was (almost) alone in the woods for 5 hours - at the end of the day I took a mental note of the fact that I had enjoyed being alone during this long run. This is a new feeling. I used to become very anxious and impatient while on my long-runs when I first started doing solo long runs - these feelings do sometimes still come up; when it happens I remind myself of how much I love being in the natural environment and how privileged I am to have the opportunity to spend a day this way. I remind myself to stay in the moment and deal with what I can control - leave everything else to run it's own course - time is not affected by anything I do - time is simply part of the environment. When I get anxious about how long it will take to finish the run I try to remember that all runs end - it is not something I need to spend any energy worrying about. It will come to and end and more often than not I am always sorry that it ends. I am relieved, for a moment, that it has ended; but in the same instance I start to miss the run and the experience that it was.
I think, that doing the long-runs alone is good preparation for me for a long race.
I was about 44 when I started running - now I am several age groups past you - I am 50. Like you, I think rest is a good way to recover. I also enjoy walking on recovery days. Recently, I have added some shorter faster runs to my program between the long runs; I enjoy these runs tremendously and they give me a break from all the "slow" running on the trail. I feel they add freshness to my legs and feet.
I am strength training my feet and ankles and doing self massage of feet and ankles as well. I know that some people love barefoot and minimalist running and that they benefit from it; however, my personal experience is the opposite. I probably did it all wrong so I can't advise you how to do it. I own several pairs of Nike Frees but I don't ever run in them anymore; I don't even want to go for a long walk in them. - I have also been a barefoot runner and run in minimalist shoes. I don't want to be too negative but I have never ever had such foot and achilles injuries as those that resulted from my experiments with this approach to running. I don't ever want to go back to that kind of injury. It was a very long and slow healing process. My current sore spot is nothing compared to what I went through before.
This being said - I am well on the way to the Idatarod trail invitational 350 miler. I've got the first 22 covered See you there; I'll be the one wearing snow shoes!!!
Flower - Do you do any kind of strength training? If not, it's extremely beneficial. Running is a whole body experience, therefore, the entire body needs to be strong. I won't blab on about this unless you have questions.
Re speed work - I've been told you either need to do speed work or you need to do hill work, but not in the same week (by hill work, I'm not talking about hills encountered when trail running). The speed work from which I have benefited most is strides (at least that's what I call them). After I'm good and warmed up, every 10 minutes I GRADUALLY increase my speed until I'm running hard, run hard for a few seconds, then GRADUALLY decrease my speed. I'm not a big fan of speed work, but this has really helped me improve.
As far as hill work goes - nothing like hill repeats to get the legs good and used to climbing. Or combine speed and hill work in the same workout with hill sprints. If you're doing, say, a 5-mile run, after the first 3 miles, find a good hill. Run hard up it for 20 seconds, recovery jog/walk back down. Repeat 5-10 times depending on the size of the hill - - - and your ability to continue to move. Finish up your mileage. I haven't done hill repeats in a long time, but I know they'll be back in the program for SOB in July.
Good luck with however you choose to proceed. You know your body. Listen to it.
Jen, I didn't respond to your questions about the pace and time goal for 40miler. It is my intention to run 4 mph for the duration. This would mean 10 hours on the trails. If after 10 hours I haven't yet reached 40 miles I intend to keep moving until 40 miles. The limit for me is 12 hours. After that I am allowed to quit. Also, if I don't feel good after 10 hours I may quit even if I have not yet completed 40 miles. I am not a masochist so it should be good fun - I don't want to come away with injury; soreness is OK and to be expected. I don't expect this to be easy. I did my last 50K in 7.5 hours. This is why I think it's realistic to do 40 miles in under 12 hours if my training goes well.
The Zensah compression shorts are super soft and have very long legs (I am 5'3") so they reach my knees. This prevents chafing of the thighs. The fabric is nice light weight but I am afraid they are going to feel hot in the summer as they are black. I felt a little irritation in the crotch from some inside "seams" but it did not become severe - I was anxious about it but it didn't actually turn bad so next time I wear them on a long run I might be less anxious.
They are "one size" fits all - which means they are a little loose on me; in other words I don't think they provide much compression but overall I like them and I am going to run more long runs in them to give them more of a chance. I wish they had pockets like the race ready shorts. No pockets at all.
Imminent Catastrophe
I'd like to hear something about strength training.
"Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"
"To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain
"The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.
√ Javelina Jundred Jalloween 2015
Cruel Jewel 50 mile May 2016
Western States 100 June 2016
For starters, great articles from CoolRunning and Time-To-Run.
Whole body strength training will definitely improve your running. Runners need to remember that it we're not just using our legs, we're using our entire body to propel ourselves forward. (IMHO, trail runners exert a lot more energy than road runners.) Therefore, it's extremely important to maintain whole body health, i.e., strength training. I'm not talking about building muscle mass, but making what you have stronger to protect your knees, your ankles, your back, etc.
Despite what we've been taught in the past, more is not better. Any trainer worth his or her fee will tell you the max number of reps you should be doing per set is 15, total number of sets 3. If you get to where the 15/3 is easy, up your weight.
There's debate of what's better: resistance training or free weights. I mix it up and incorporate both, and I am now doing TRX training. Plus, almost all of my strength training, with the exception of planks and a few BOSU exercises, is done standing. I don't lay down or sit when I'm running, so why would I do strength training in either of those positions? Standing incorporates the core muscles no matter the exercise. I also use a "step box" that I have from my "The Firm" days. It comes in 2 pieces that are 12" and 6", but together is a nice 18" box. (I'll try to remember to post a photo if you want.)
My strength training with free weights incorporates:
Legs
Seated squats (weights on shoulders, sit on box and squat up and down in medium paced, controlled motion)
Single leg step ups (weights on shoulders or in hands at side. Place 1 foot on box and lift up, touch toe of other foot on top, lower back down in controlled motion)
Single leg step downs (place a paper cup at each side of the box. In a controlled motion, lower foot down 'til it just touches the cup, raise back up.
Toes Raises (with weights resting on thighs)
BOSU Calf Raises (with weight in hand of calf being worked)
Bulgarian Squat (video)
Bridgesb (two legged and single legged, with a weight lying on my hips)
Lunges are excellent, too, but they always tweak my right knee and sciatic nerve.
Upper Body
Chest Flies
Standing Rows
Shoulder Lifts
Side Lifts
Bicep Curls
Tricep Kickbacks
Overhead Press
Core
Flat Planks
Side Planks
Superwoman (balancing on BOSU)
Standing Back something-or-others (stand, feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent, weights in hands, engage core muscles, slowly bend over at the hips and raise back up)
I don't do all of these in one strength training day. I mix it up so that I'm doing about 6 of each, and about every 4-6 weeks, I switch it up. Except for the core. I do all the core. If you keep doing the same exercises over and over in the same routine, your body will get used to it and will there will be less benefit.
I do my strength training 2 days a week, the same days I do my alternate cardio or recovery runs (I get to choose what I want to do). And even though I'm very lax about this, I believe core workouts should be done 3-4 times a week.
If you've never done strength training, just like everything else, you need to ease your way into it. Start out light and work your way up. Remember, we're not trying to build mass, we're strengthening to protect ourselves and make ourselves stronger, more efficient runners.