2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 493 times)

    That suspiciously looks like me behind Mark! (Edit: Yeah, nah not me. Mark lapped me at another corner that looked a bit similar! This is the finish line)


    Well done on the Team Auckland gold medal, Marky Mark. Classic that your watch measured 9.99km. I had a friend ask me if the course was long because all the runs she saw on Strava were way over 10km. Must've been cloudy for all but you! Smile

    50+ age-group PBs:  Half Perish 1:28:11 (Sept '22 Off-Road Half) - 10km 37:52 (2022 Local Road Champs); - Track 5km 18:49 (Aug '22); Track Mile 5:32 (2021)

    2023 Goals: Perish Run BQ (3:25) Half Perish Sub 1:25 - Road/Track 10km Sub 37:00 - 5km Sub 18:00

    2022 Races: That's it. Merry Xmas to one and all!





      Intl. correspondent

        Update: We’ve been to Vigo and Santiago de Compostela in Spain over the weekend and the food was very good. War with Spain has been averted.


        Mark - Awesome job in tough conditions. I have only raced once in those conditions and I was 30 seconds slower on a 5k race. At some point the wind nearly tore my bib apart.

        Take a moment to celebrate the fact you’re competing head to head with the top runners of the country.


        Steve - Now you see why whenever I see a big dog off the leash I’ll turn around and go back the way I was coming from.

        And if they are on the leash I cross the street.

        Also, less alcohol is always good for your health.


        DW - Some very good news from you lately, I hope you’re catching break from your wave of issues.

        Your running is looking very good lately.


        Cinnamon - Way to finish fast on that Monday workout.


        me - My week is below. I'm feeling average since Saturday but managed a nice tempo yesterday. I'm hoping this funk goes away.

        Weekly for period: From: 08/29/2022 To 09/04/2022

        Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
        in ft
        08/30 70' recovery 8.13 13.08 01:09:50 08:35 05:20 371
        08/31 2 sets (5x300R + 100E)- 4' between sets 6.29 10.13 00:50:25 08:01 04:59 253
        09/01 60' E 7.41 11.92 01:00:01 08:06 05:02 453
        09/03 70' recovery - Hola Vigo 🇪🇸 7.30 11.75 01:10:01 09:35 05:58 338
        09/04 25'T avg 6:25mi 3:59km 8.14 13.10 00:59:55 07:22 04:34 203

        Total distance: 37.27mi

        PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

        Up next: 21K Eco Trail Porto (https://porto.ecotrail.com/en/race-ecotrail-porto/20km)

        Tool to generate Strava weekly


          DW - great running week. Though the last longest run seems to be far away, I think, in your  situation it's ok - considering that you still have MP run and half marathon race. Seems like a good way to keep up the training intensity.


          mmerkle - I would not worry too much about every single run. Even if it's an LR. You are not a machine, and you cannot tell your body to feel better on a particular day. I will share my thoughts about my latest marathon training cycle (which I kind of shared before and many others had similar experience - so, kind of nothing new Smile in next post. So, maybe it will calm you down a little bit, though - I doubt it Smile


          Dave - congrats on the biggest week! hopefully it will all come together on the race day.


          Marky - I am thinking maybe something is not too correct with your watch. In an essence of things it doesn't matter - what exact distance you ran, you are the fastest out of all of us irregardless. But it gives some of us a topic to talk about Smile In any case, I have this guy on our amateur running track team - his watch consistently shows wrong paces. And his watch is an expensive Gramin Fenix 5X Plus. So, last time he and I ran together 6 x 1 mile with 400 jog and we ran all the miles together, at the same pace - his watch was showing 5:35 pace every mile, my watch was showing 6:15-6:20 - and I know 100% that my numbers are correct - I know too well how 5:35 feels like Smile - not to mention, 5:35 is my mile best time Smile. So, the guy was elated, his friends were elated for a few days, but he still cannot break sub 3 - no wonder with the pace difference like that Smile. I didn't mention it to him - because I just met the guy, probably will tell him later - but his watch is crazy Smile


          flavio - nice recovery week!


          Mikkey - we always see the best in people, right? 

          paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


            JMac - you can add me as a runner for 2022 London marathon on October 2nd. There is no way back now - non-refundable flight tickets are bought. And registration is paid off. Now, only if something out of my hands happens, only then I might not run. Just not to be accused of sandbagging, I would set a goal as sub 2:57 (Moose Mug?) and B goal probably would be sub 3? I've never run London, so, not sure - I usually do better when I run a familiar course.


            Thoughts about my unexpectedly good marathon I ran last week. Nothing analytical, just wanted to share my personal (anecdotal) experience - just maybe it will add to somebody's perception of training and racing relationship.


            Santa Rosa has never been my goal marathon. I ran it last year and learned that it's not super fast course. Considering that it's an end of August, the weather also could be a crapshoot. My so called cycle basically was not existent, I ran very decent mileage consistently, nothing crazy, but not bad - July and August were 301 and 334 accordingly. I didn't follow any specific training plan. The only thing I kind of followed is a track workout on Tuesday - running 6x1, 3x2 or 2x3 sometimes and sometimes something else - I was deciding on it at the last moment. When I felt OK, I would run relatively long run on Saturdays - in total I ran only two 20+ milers and few 16-18 miles runs. I also ran few MP effort runs on Thursdays - when I felt I am ready for such intensity. The couple of them were relatively successful , but during 11 miles at MP effort I only was able to hit two miles at 6:50 pace, the rest was 7-12 seconds slower. But the effort was there. That's for you mmerkle Smile If effort is there, HR wise and feeling wise, that's ok to consider it successful workout, imho. But, I think, another major important requirement - mileage... My approach would not hold water probably, if I run 50 miles (or less) a week.


            Two more interesting things that I think helped me during the race. I know you guys will laugh at me, but I ran with music again (for the 3rd time). Who doesn't remember - I collected about 60 songs at a beat rate of 192-193. I discovered that it could be very beneficial to me before running Napa marathon in March - at least I thought about collecting that playlist. So... It was crucial, imho, for my race this time - every time I was kind slowing down, the new song would come in and I would get into the beat and got additional prop to my pace - I think guys who were running with me for the last 10 miles, probably were thinking - what the heck? why this guy suddenly goes faster? Ha-ha... The rhythm and the beat  was so helpful for me, I cannot over-emphasize it. Seriously. Plus, not hearing other guys talking and totally been focused on a race, that helped too, I believe.


            Btw, if you check my the average cadence number for the marathon, guess what number it is? Smile Ha-ha - 192!


            And another thing. Last two month were extremely stressful for me. And I lost at least 4-5 kgs. If I say it didn't help, I would probably be lying Smile


            This week was all about running. At any pace. Totally based on how I feel. Time on my legs without injuries - that's all I cared. I hope I will be able to recover by London race.


            Weekly for period: From: 08/29/2022 To 09/04/2022

            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km  
            08/29 Evening Ride 3.05 4.91 00:22:09 07:16 04:31  
            08/30 Morning Run 8.71 14.02 01:12:33 08:20 05:10  
            08/31 Evening Run 11.24 18.08 01:43:19 09:12 05:43  
            09/01 Evening Run 11.28 18.14 01:42:50 09:07 05:40  
            09/02 Evening Run 11.31 18.20 01:39:10 08:46 05:27  
            09/03 Evening Run 13.05 20.99 01:47:51 08:16 05:08  
            09/04 Evening Run 11.29 18.17 01:49:27 09:42 06:01  

            Total distance: 66.88mi

            paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

            Running Problem

            Problem Child

              cal you run more miles after a marathon than I do to ‘maintain fitness’ or whatever I’m doing right now. Impressive.

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 52.45

              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07


                Thanks CAL- This is really good information and I appreciated reading it. So great to read that you hit sub-3 again!  Gives hope to this OLD guy.


                Sorry I've been absent but the summer has been brutal!  Mostly 50 or so miles a week but had a week off with COVID and all slow miles.  I've reinforced that I'm not a hot weather runner August has picked up with 60,60,80,80 so I feel I'm ready to start some "real" training for Philadelphia on 11/20. I'm reading back a few pages and am really impressed with the training on the board!

                5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 


                  Thanks Cal. I should probably focus more on effort, since a lot of things can affect pace. I have a tendency to obsess a little over numbers. I know your mileage is pretty high, but what is it usually during "the peak" of marathon training? My peak is usually 65-70 per week. This cycle I'm hoping for a few consecutive weeks in the 70's.


                  Cobra Commander Keen

                    Once again covering things not addressed in the Walton's thread.

                    Steve - Excellent week! Why feel bad because of how someone else reacted to their dog doing something it shouldn't? Pepper spray isn't really a thing in NZ, is it? I feel like we've covered this before, but I don't recall the answer.

                    Merkle - Your notes for that LR say it was hot and that you were tired and felt like crap. Surely you didn't feel that way last year on those runs in which you were loggin faster miles. Seems likely to be a one-off to me.

                    Dave - Congrats on bumping up the high-mileage mark for this cycle. 14M is pretty darn massive in my book. I don't know that I've ever hit paces for one of those that equaled what I did in an actual race (assuming I didn't get sick in said race).

                    Cinnamon - Nice week.

                    Flavio - Feeling "average" for you is likely still pretty good for the general populace. Nice tempo.

                    Cal - Interesting observation with the F5X+. Is the guy using a footpod or anything? I used one of those for years without such issues.
                    Congrats on jumping off that cliff towards London, and best of luck there.



                    Question for the hive mind - How much non-running time do you typically get in a LR (say, 16-20 or 22 miles)? Run it all continuously? Stop once to refill water? Small water stops every 3-5 miles?

                    I had a pretty solid week, bumping up my mileage just a tad. My workout didn't go so well - I had 7 @ HMe planned and pulled the plug after mile 6 because the difficulty was a good deal beyond what it should have been. Hopefully tomorrow's workout goes better despite similar weather to last week, if only because it's broken up into 1 mile repeats instead of a continuous block. 
                    It's still way out there, but the forecast for my race in a couple weekends looks like it could hold promise for some pretty decent racing temps.


                    Weekly for period: From: 08/29/2022 To 09/04/2022

                    Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                    in ft
                    08/29 8 deer (8 strides) & 2 rabbits 12.00 19.31 01:39:22 08:17 05:09 430
                    08/29 And the thunder rolls... 5.01 8.05 00:42:39 08:31 05:18 213
                    08/30 1 armadillo & 1 rabbit 8.00 12.88 01:11:58 09:00 05:35 394
                    08/31 6 @ HMe 15.31 24.63 01:58:14 07:43 04:48 374
                    08/31 2 buzzards 4.05 6.52 00:36:37 09:02 05:37 177
                    09/01 23 geese 8.00 12.88 01:12:53 09:07 05:40 361
                    09/02 Sticky 10.00 16.10 01:26:37 08:40 05:23 492
                    09/02 1 news chopper 5.05 8.13 00:44:11 08:45 05:26 384
                    09/03 10 deer (10 strides), 3 quail, 2 coyotes, 2 owls, & 1 jackrabbit 17.00 27.36 02:23:19 08:26 05:14 932
                    09/04 2 hawks 6.10 9.82 01:00:18 09:53 06:08 354

                    Total distance: 90.53mi

                    5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22


                    Upcoming Races:


                    Heartland 50 - May 6


                      Commanderkeen I don't stop unless either I'm done or I really have to pee. Sometimes I might back off the pace for a couple minutes if I need to recharge, whatever that means.

                      Running Problem

                      Problem Child

                        CommanderKeen what the fuck is ‘non-running time’ in a long run? It’s a long run, not a ‘run, stop and chat before doing laundry and making a grocery list then napping until I wake up and finish running.’ If there is a red light and I have to actually stop I will. Otherwise I just run. Rarely do I do what JMac questioned earlier about doing a wa up, race, then continuing on. I will take 32 ounce of water with me, and if this isn’t enough I can have an additional 1.5L to take with me. 
                        If I’m doing trails with lots of vert I will walk.

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 52.45

                        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                          Keen: LR stops are generally only for pee breaks or stoplights. My handheld water volume is usually enough that I don't need to refill. Main exception is that when I am with my running group (typical for LRs), I may do some miles before the group start time, so could be 5+ minute break depending how I am able to time it. I suppose running with the group has increased my stoppage time for other reasons, e.g. stopping for someone else to pee or refill water, and a variety of routes involving more traffic lights than I'd have in my solo LR route. But it's worth any sacrifice in training benefit, since LRs with other people is so much nicer.



                          Hot Weather Complainer

                            Cal - Legendary performance!  Wow, either you did some sandbagging, or you're supremely talented at marathons...I'm going with some of both.  You make it look easy.


                            Keen - I'm not sure how easy it is to get pepper spray in NZ but I don't think I'd ever use it on a dog unless I was in serious danger.  I guess I felt bad because I felt like maybe I over-reacted given this particular dog was not really a danger to me.  It was past experiences that led to my reaction.


                            I only stop on a long run for pee stops, although I'm trying to simulate race conditions and hydration as much as possible now so I don't drink much within 2.5 - 3 hours of starting so I can avoid it (except my 350ml electrolyte dose within 30 mins of starting).  I also leave drinks at my front door if I'm running from home, or in my car boot (trunk) if I'm at the park so at most I need to slow down slightly to get them.  I think in the conditions you're running in, it makes more sense to stop and spend more time hydrating and cooling as required.  Great week.

                            5km: 18:53 12/22 │ 10km: 40:49 2/22 │ HM: 1:27:32* 5/22 │ M: 3:35:02 10/22

                            *Net Downhill.  Flat course PR:  1:29:25 6/16

                            Upcoming Races:

                            Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023


                            Mother of Cats

                              Question for the hive mind - How much non-running time do you typically get in a LR (say, 16-20 or 22 miles)? Run it all continuously? Stop once to refill water? Small water stops every 3-5 miles?


                              My ideal is to have as little non-running time as possible in a long run.  But that's not always realistic, based on weather, route (are there at grade street crossings), and other factors.   In the winter, if I run on the right route, I can pull off a long run with no stopped time.  But in the summer, even carrying a water bottle, I will have to stop repeatedly to refill it.  If the dew point is in the mid-70s, I might very well refill my water bottle 6 or 7 times over 18 miles.   And I think that's the right decision - I don't accomplish anything by running myself into the ground.


                              (to those of you who suggest leaving water bottles out to grab and go - those are most likely going to vanish before I get to them).


                              For my progressive long run on Sunday, I had 11 minutes of non-running time matched with just under 3 hours of running.  That's not great, but most of it came from a stop about 6 miles in where I wanted to use the bathroom and refill my water bottle and had to wait in lines for both.


                              My biggest priority during long runs is that I don't stop during the quality parts of the run.  For Sunday's progressive run, my water refill breaks were all during the easy and moderate parts of the run, including a final water bottle refill right before I started the marathon pace section.  I was fine with that - the first part of that progression run is really about time on my feet and accumulating fatigue, so a longer than ideal break during that part isn't necessarily a bad thing.  But once I hit a marathon effort section, I want to keep that continuous if at all possible.

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.


                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.


                                Question for the hive mind - How much non-running time do you typically get in a LR (say, 16-20 or 22 miles)? Run it all continuously? Stop once to refill water? Small water stops every 3-5 miles?



                                As little as possible.  Ideally I'd run it all continuously and my normal LR routes mean I don't have to worry about stopping for road crossings much, if at all.  My LR's are typically in the 16-20 mile range and I don't carry water with me.  So, maybe 1 or 2 water fountain stops (probably 3 in summer).  I did a quick skim on Strava and it looks like total non-running time is typically 4-5 minutes across a 2 hour run.  Sometimes a little more if I needed a bathroom stop.

                                3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                                10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                                * Net downhill course

                                Last race: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb, 1:17:50, 1st overall

                                Up next: Waterfront Half Marathon, 2 Apr

                                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"