Forums >Racing>3:20 Marathoners ... New and Improved for (the rest of) 2017
Mother of Cats
(this is my second try at a response, after a flaky router dropped my internet connection at just the wrong time and I lost the first post)
Ace and Rob - I'm sorry you had to suffer through that. I had hoped that the winds might at least be a tailwind for the last part of the course, but it seems you didn't even get that.
Ace - though Shamrock is my PR, I'm still not that sure it's the best choice for a revenge race. It's been a wonderful race in the past, but they recently redid the course, and I'm not a fan of the new one.
To give more detail - Shamrock is often very windy, and I'd give you a 1 in 4 chance of having winds at Shamrock like you did at Columbus.
If Shamrock is windy, the wind is almost always from the north. In the old course, you'd start running south, and have a tailwind for 6-7 miles. Then you'd turn North and have a headwind for about 10, with miles 10-12 bearing the worst of the wind (being on the boardwalk). Around mile 17 you'd continue North, but in a sheltered wooded area. Then around 20 you'd turn back south and have an awesome tailwind for the last 6 miles.
Short version - the hardest headwind hit you when you were best able to handle it, and the tailwind helped a ton at the end.
Now, they reversed the course. So it will be 20-26 that will be into a headwind if it's windy, with miles 23-25 (on the boardwalk) being the worst. I'm not a fan. It's a shame they redid the course, because it's a wonderfully run race.
Sam - glad to see that soccer hasn't stolen you completely from us.
PJ - call it WTF pace.
Ilana - waiting for the pictures to come out. There are several masters women ahead of me who are legitimate, so in a sense it doesn't matter - I won't get cash anyway.
Jim and RLK - I'm sorry you continue to deal with the bad breathing and that it's interfering with your racing. So very frustrating.
Did some more overanalysis of the Garmin data for Saturday's marathon (it's either that or eat more chocolate. Or both).
Fun fact:
a) for the final 2 miles of my PR 5K in June (which was 70 degrees but low humidity), my heart rate averaged 181, with a max HR of 186 for the race.
b) for the final 2 miles of Saturday's marathon (which ended in the low 60s and very humid), my heart rate averaged 181, with a max HR of 186 for the race.
I've noted the same thing in the past - I hit very high heart rates at the end of marathons (If I've paced them well - not so much if I crash and burn). I'm not sure there's anything I can glean out of this, but it sure does seem odd.
Also - my HR profiles for my last 3 marathons (Chicago, CIM, and Hartford) all look very similar, despite the fact that they were very different courses in very different conditions. Yay for pacing by perceived effort, I guess?
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
A 3:20 Slowpoke
CD - another impressive week. Your consistency is remarkable, I lost count of how many consecutive 60+ weeks you've had. I may have missed it, but do you have a marathon coming up soon?
Pesto,
I think I had a 50 mile week last month but it’s been a pretty consistent year. I passed last years mileage by the end of September and last year was a decent mileage year for me (2,250 miles)
I’m still shooting for Tucson Marathon in December with A goal of 3:15, B goal 3:18, and C goal sub 3:20. Those goals are predicated on optimal weather (which seems to be infrequent lately!)
You should still be savoring your tasty new PR!
PR's 5k - 20:39 (2014). 10k - 42:04 (2014) 13.1 - 1:30:30 (2014) 26.2 - 3:14:21 2017)
Upcoming Races - Boston Marathon 4/18
CD - Wow, over 2,220 miles by September is crazy. Given the great race you ran in Boston, I think the goals you stated are more than reasonable. Hope you get good weather! And yes, I stalked you a bit on strava after I wrote the post, and saw a 50 mile week (one out of the last 12?). Also, I just realized your next marathon was in your signature. I need to look at signatures more often.
I'm definitely enjoying this year so far. I'd like to get a new 5k PR soon (before the Berlin cycle fitness disappears completely), but am having a hard time finding a race around here.
SC - RE the messy HR data, what watch do you have? I've mentioned this before, but the wrist HRM of my FR235 seems to be very unreliable. For example, during the 10k race on Sunday, according to it my average HR was 137 (70% max HR) , with a max of 152 (78%).
5K - 18:03 (5.18) | 10K - 37:58 (2.18) | HM - 1:20:45 (9.18) | FM: 2:57:59 (10.18)
Speed Surplus
"SC - RE the messy HR data, what watch do you have? I've mentioned this before, but the wrist HRM of my FR235 seems to be very unreliable. For example, during the 10k race on Sunday, according to it my average HR was 137 (70% max HR) , with a max of 152 (78%)."
I have the same one, and it seems to be very finicky about how I position it on my wrist, and how tightly the strap is secured. Even with perfect positioning, it sometimes takes half a mile or so to settle down. Other times it just gives me a straight line that's 20-30 bpm above where it should be.
It's not the end of the world; I have enough legit HR data now to know when it's being weird, but it's just kind of annoying.
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
Resident Millennial
ace- that sounds like a real sufferfest. good job getting through it - add it to the arsenal of experiences to draw from next time you find yourself in the pain cave. and ha, the stroller chase sounds painful!
sam- soccer? sports? what is that. i don't understand.
dwave- " (it's either that or eat more chocolate. Or both)." i like this!! what's your usual recovery MO? i could imagine, some very chill pool time and yoga after several days? how long do you usually take completely off post-marathon?
cdave- with those goals and december timing, you should ditch Tucson and join me at CIM so we can hit those goals together! :P
pesto- agree- optical HR is still pretty meh. and the 235 has garmin's own, first-time-they-made-one sensor, so honestly probably a little less reliable than the mio sensor (a bit more tried and tested) in the 225.
hey to everyone else
I signed up for a replacement half from the one last sunday. It'll be in Folsom, which some of you might know as the town where CIM starts. It's a few miles downhill and then the rest flat. Should be sunny and low-mid 50s for the race, and the air quality should be fine out there. (The air is overall improving as the fires and increasingly contained. Though yesterday was quite bad until early afternoon and we were all apprehensive if Track would be happening in the evening or not. Big gusty winds from the west (ocean) in late afternoon brought cooler temps and pushed the smoke out, probably out towards jimland.) I haven't raced since a crappy trail race in June (!) so I am actually pretty nervy! I was being a baby and on the fence about it, but coach told me to suck it up and get those racing jitters out now instead of in December. Sounds like a good idea.Track last night was hard. 2x(3k@LT, 2min recov, 2k@10k, 2min recov, 1k@5k, 4min recov). That's 12k of work at average pace of around 10k pace ... with some rest too. It's our longest workout of the season. Oddly, coach had us (CIM people) do this last night when the NYCM people were doing it. We all had to be flexible based on Sunday's race being cancelled / what workout to do instead (if we had raced, we wouldn't have done a tues workout.) But I feel like we had it a bit early in our cycle - maybe that's why my legs got so fatigued with ~2k of intervals to go. Anyway, splits went 12:28 (6:39 pace), 8:10 (6:32), 3:58 (6:20), 12:29 (6:39), 8:08 (6:30), 3:51 (6:10). LT probably a touch fast but everything else looks spot on. I've done this workout a few times and these paces were by far the best I've ever managed. As brew pointed out on strava, "looks like someone's getting serious about CIM now." Yep. Getting serious hurts though!
_________________________________________________mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
also HAPPY BIRTHDAY cdave!!!!
Dwave - great racing! I know it's not what you had hoped for a month or so ago, but life happens and all things considered it was great,
Rlk - ugh the air quality has declined even way over here! I hate having to check it in October!
Ace - bummer about the heat. We've all been there.
Still chugging along over here, but nothing serious. Ran 5 miles this morning and really regretted not wearing my gloves. It was only 43, but my hands got super cold.
PRs: HM: 1:32:59 (2015); FM: 3:18:36 (2017)
rlk - great workout! That sounds tough, but still a smoking fast last 1k! Also, very good point on the mio vs garmin sensor. I think ilana had mentioned that before at one point, but it hadn't register with me. It definitely makes sense.
SC - It is quite annoying, and it really messes up with the estimated VO2max: one run where the HR reads too high and it goes down quite a bit, another one where the HR reads too low (like Sunday race) and it increases sharply. Anyway, I got used to it. If I really want reliable HR data, I just put a chest-strap on.
CD - happy bday!
kk - good to hear from you! Winter is coming.
Hi everyone else! Hope ace, DkW and max are properly recovering.
Thanks for the B-day wishes. Not an exciting one (running wise) since it throws me smack dab in the middle of my current age group.
rlk - would love to race CIM with you and the large 3:20 contingent but logistics and finances are a huge issue. I can race Tucson with a manageable drive and a one night stay. I would probably blow up trying to keep up with you anyway!
Pesto - you’re new 5k PR is right around the corner. Did you find a race yet?
Max - hope you’re recovering well. Race report?
dwave: thanks for the advice on Shamrock. After this past weekend, I'd prefer to not battle more wind.
I may end up waiting until end of March and doing our local marathon (Knoxville,TN). It's a little hilly, but I know every step of the course. It's a week earlier this year which hopefully means cooler temps. Last year it started in upper 40s, ended in the 60s. Looking to race some shorter distances over the winter. We have some decent ones around town. Also, according to your HR data you may actually be a machine.
I am feeling pretty well recovered at the moment. Legs feel back to normal. I've enjoyed the few days of rest, but am also antsy to get back to it. My wife signed me up for a 5k this weekend. It's race for the cure and we are on a team for a friend who's in remission from breast cancer. Trying to decide whether to race it or not. May do a little "jog" tomorrow and see how that goes first.
Working on evaluating how the coaching service worked for me. I'm definitely in the best shape in years, but didn't hit my goal. Obviously a lot of factors to consider for this particular race. Going to discuss training further with the coach and get an idea on what we would change going forward.
What is it about having a terrible race, but wanting to do it again? Are we crazy? I just can't help but to want to go for it again (just smarter next time).
max: interested to hear how your event went
cd: nice work on a great running year so far! Also, happy B-day.
rlk: nice workout! I'm thinking I'd like to try some longer interval workouts like that in my next training cycle.
Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)
You and me both. Though mine wasn't terrible, I'm feeling awfully unfulfilled right now. I basically put a lot of work into a great training cycle to run a race I really didn't care about in a time I didn't really care for. I wanna do-over.
A question: was the decision to go out at close to goal race pace and try to hold it your decision, or your coach's guidance?
If it was your call, then fine - I can't blame you, since I know you had a BQ on the line. (since I cared about placement and potential prize money, it was emotionally easier for me to adjust my pacing strategy for the weather). But if your coach encouraged you to go out at that pace, I'm not sure I'd stay with him/her.
I do think that being in the best shape of your life is an argument in favor of your coach . And I also don't think you can come to any conclusions about your fitness from the fact that you missed your goal. It's just been a lousy few weeks for marathoning, weather-wise.
CD - excited to see what that consistency gets you. And happy birthday!
Pesto/SC - I have the 935, and I've found the wrist-based HR totally useless when I'm working out. I'll just stick with the chest band. Which is not a huge issue for me, since my sports bras all obviously have a band across the chest anyway.
Katia - any weather below 55 is gloves weather for me.
RLK - I'm sticking to the pool and yoga through tomorrow, and then I'll start some light jogging on Saturday (a week post-race). My coach likes us to take 3 weeks no hard running after a marathon, and I think I need it here. The superficial soreness from the marathon is gone as of today, but I still have some deep fatigue that's going to take a while to ease. Really resting and recovering now will pay dividends for me this winter and spring.
Very nice workout, BTW - I'd love to do stuff like that. My coach likes to keep a lid on the volume of the track workouts; I'd rather do a higher volume myself.
Good luck at the race! Folsom with great weather is bringing back happy memories....
Problem Child
rlk Hey getting serious about stuff is never easy. I can tell you there were plenty of workouts for CIM 2016 where I'd wonder what kind of shape I was in if I was this tired or the workouts were this hard. I am ignoring how much work I'll need to start putting in in order to get serious about 2018. Good luck with the half. Just go into it as a race and not trying to prove what you're capable of for CIM. Also, don't get excited if it calculates you're capable of something you'd be STOAKED to run.
climberdaf I'm not sure I'd be able to keep up with max at anything longer than 26.2. He has some deep down power/ability/gift to just crank out miles of running and hiking. I think it has something to do with his 90 MPW. Also, I never knew Tuscon had a marathon in December. I might have to run that at some point. My wife's grandparents live there in the winter. Looks like it starts around the same elevation I run at and ends about half way to Folsom.
Ace off to read the RR. Facetime was a good idea. I'd never think of that and as a runner I think it's cool you did it. I'd be afraid I'd lose my groove or want to talk to them too long. Maybe max will do that for his next race so we can all encourage him. I think you were in 3:05 shape. It sucks you had a rough race to run. Are you going to try St. Judes in December? Looks like a course witha BUNCH of turns on flat roads.
Felt sick for 2 days this week so I cut out running. It's pretty easy to cut out running when you're weekly miles are under 20. I think 8 miles is a long run at this point. I'm not sure why I'm so "meh" about running right now. I didn't exactly expect this feeling but I fully expected the massive reduction in miles. I'll have to figure out the logistics of getting back into running while also having a kid. Maybe I'll start with 30 MPW and at least one "long" weekend run again.
Work threw me a baby shower. I put up a 20 oz Yeti Tumbler for everyone who brought in 100+ diapers. I had 11 people in the raffle so my house has a large amount of diapers. Thankfully the wife's work didn't bring diapers because I'm not sure where they'd go. Work also made a "Baby Instruction Manual" in which a lot of my coworkers wrote advice about how to raise a kid, or a dog since none have cats, which I thought was really nice. Some people kept it short and sweet. Some people wrote two or three pages.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Strict WTF adherent
Oy, behind again. So as usual, I won't try to catch up completely.
Dad and DW - I was sort of planning to be around for that beer mile. I remember being particularly impressed and humbled by the winning woman's time.
^This right here is one of the main reasons why marathons are terrible.
Dave - Tucson looks like a really nice race. I was under the impression that December weather was very predictable there.
Brew - I promise those diapers will vanish almost instantly.
Hey rlk good luck in Folsom! Nice job on that workout too.
Dwave - Nice consistency on the HR. I think I need a chest strap again. The optical HR is jut not reliable enough on my 235.
Brew - Over 1,000 diapers? I wonder how long that will last.
The good news: Air quality was already improving, but now we've had some rain (first in months) and today the smoke's all gone. Yay!
The bad news: I am injured a bit. I hurt a rib shortly after the race on Sunday and it hurts to breathe deeply. I can run at easy pace but anything else gets uncomfortable fast. I even tried a track session last night but quit after one set. Oh well, I just have to rack up some easy miles and wait it out I suppose. It does feel a little better today, so we'll see.
KK- i remember when you were talking about AQ maybe last year. i honestly didn't understand then what a huge problem/impediment it is, until we experienced it!
cdave- that makes sense.
ace- "What is it about having a terrible race, but wanting to do it again? Are we crazy? I just can't help but to want to go for it again (just smarter next time)." ha. this is the insanity, summed up! i agree with what dwave said and felt this way after Botswana ... put in all this great work, came out of it lukewarm and unfulfilled. do-over indeed. unfortunately ,it (usually) requires recovery and a brand new training block to get there...
dwave- thanks! given your high amount of knowledge and expertise with marathoning and how your body works, would you ever modify yuor coach's workouts to, for instance, get in longer track intervals like i did? i know you follow your coach's directives pretty strongly. our coaching is less individualized, so we have some people who modify things... for instance, a girl who is easily injured/aggravated by lots of hard track stuff. she does an abbreviated version of our longer workouts, like this one. (this is also good because as a group we tend to run tuesdays a bit too hard...)aw yeah, i have never been to folsom before. maybe this is step one in the mental prep for december 3rd!
brew- that baby shower sounds super nice!!! eee. the day is coming!
jim- oh shoot, i'm sorry to hear that! injured rib related to the race, or just later that day? ribs are a funky thing, and they require more sensitivity/discretion being pokey and so close to the lungs. (i'm sure dls has some more technical terms for this.)