What do these pictures tell you about my form? (Read 1714 times)

Anne, You do appear to be a mid-foot runner, and maybe that is why you don't lean forward more. One thing I have noticed about myself is sometimes I am not pushing off with my back foot, and end up shuffling more. I think it's OK, if not even good to do in an easy run (easier on the feet) but in a race you need momentum. Are you pushing off with your foot? Are you keeping your toes flat? (Maybe this sounds funny, but mine like to curl, and have read about people putting cotton in the toes to keep flat.) These are things when I pay attention to them make a world of difference in my race times. I hope Nobby or others can comment how the "toe off" can affect the rest of a person's form.

Bugs--since you asked...: Well, I love you too! ;o) But, all due respect, I don't see any sign of Anne being a mid-foot runner from those pictures at all. If you want to look at someone's form and analyze it, you really have to be careful because it can really be quite deceaving. I remember, quite a while ago, someone posted ONE image of himself saying that he's a heel-striker. Well, sure you can see the bottom of his shoe; but the image was still too far off the ground to indicate he was actually landing on his feel. Even if someone landing on their heel first, they might "roll" it so quickly that it really may not provide any braking effect. Even if someone is landing hard on his/her heel, you cannot say that it's no good--Deena is a classic example of heel striker and she runs alright! I also don't think mid-foot running contributes to not leaning forward. On the contrary, I think heel-strking form would contribute more to not leaning forward. Besides, forward lean is another tricky subject; yes, you do want to be leaning VERY SLIGHTLY forward. I'm sure we all heard about standing straight and start to lean forward until to the point where you can't hold it any longer (with your Center of Gravity slightly forward to where your feet are on the ground/floor); and that's the lean you want. Yes, that would be nice because, in theory, this would allow your body to "roll forward naturally"....well, IF your legs are wheels! They are not; and, if anything, landing on your heel first might even enhance your legs NOT being like a wheel. In most cases, particularly for a slower runner, if they land on their heel, their legs would move like a pendulum. In other words, they hardly lift their knees and they hardly "kick" backward as you mentioned, or "push" the ground. Consequently, all they do is shuffle their feet barely being lifted from the ground, and feet would move back and forth. At the moment of impact, their knee is almost locked and the forward leg is pretty much straight from hip down to the foot and it doesn't matter if your upper body is leaned forward or straight up; you WILL get some braking action running like this. Techinically, you only lean forward when your body is ACCELERATING. At the start of a 100m race, your body is completely leaning forward becaue you are accelerating from 0 speed to whatever your top speed is. I always thought Mo Greene's technique quite "textbook-like". You can't even see his face until somewhere around 40m mark; that's his "accelerating phase". Sometimes some of the best springers in the world seemingly run leaning backward. Remember Frankie Fredricks of Namibia? He was a prime example of this; and I think he actually was leaning backward at the top speed! Now, some distance runners, particularly some Kenyans, have quite distinct forward lean. I've heard about this and this is, supposedly, due to the angle of their pelvic bone and the function of muscles surrounding their hip bone. In other words, this is not something you just see in some fast runners and try to copy. If you try to do it without supporting muscles being strong enough, chances are, you'll probably hurt yourself. Personally, I like what Bill Bowerman explained; your upper body should be upright, probably with C of G very slightly positioned forward, and your foot landing directly under your C of G. In other words, he said, if you drop a tennis ball from where your ear is at the moment of the impact, it should fall directly down to your shoulders, hips, and where your foot lands. This is probably a bit extreme. Because your body is constantly in motion (at least, we'd hope...), your foot WILL land slightly ahead of your C of G but what matters is how quickly your C of G moves over the point of landing and how far ahead your landing spot is in comparison to C of G. If you look at a slow motion or still image of Reiko Tosa, she lands on her heel; but her lower leg (below knee) is in such angle that she's not really creating much braking action at all. Plus with her quick leg-turn-over, she does use her legs more or less like a wheel. Okay, so I've been yapping some useless information just to pretend I know something. I've seen a lot of books and articles written about running form; it talks about forward lean and angle of knees and all that. To me, those things mean nothing whatsoever. If anything, particularly for beginners, all those information would do nothing but to confuse them. What's worse actually is it focuses the "still-images" and talks about angles and lean and all. For the body to maitain such an "angle", you need strong and supple enough muscles to actually do so. Without them, putting your pelvis in such angle would only hurt some lower back muscles. Push the ground and don't "sit in a bucket"... Those are all valid suggestion; but, to me, if we can't provide certain workouts to enhance them, the knowledge is useless. I think, for beginners, or I should actually say, particularly for beginners, it's very important to go on undulating rugged cross country courses once in a while, muddy and uneven footing if possible, and forget how fast you're running but try to teach your body how to run more efficiently. Hill bounding exercise is an excellent way to teach your legs to push off the ground. Now hill bounding is quite a demanding exercise. I'd recommend, if you can, to find some local high school stadium and run up the stadium steps, 2 steps at a time. This way, because stadium steps usually gives a good "bounce" to help propell your body, you can gradually master the movement more easily and naturally. (Modified to add: Okay, I shouldn't have said that. There are books, like, what was it, "Programmed to Run" or others, that's very very useful. I personally like "Explosive Running" by Michael Yessis) One other thing is to do is some nice easy strides. Don't rush it; if there's wind, always do this WITH the wind, not against the wind. Take plenty of recovery in between--3 minutes minimum--because if your body gets too tired, invariably, you'll tense up and don't teach your body to "relax". Try to move your legs to draw a circle. Sure, technically, you can't draw a circle with your legs (I had one kid one time, when I told them to draw a circule, he stuck his foot out and started to "draw a circule" with his foot...smart a$$...! ;o)). But in order to get this image, you'll need to bring your knees high and, instead of sticking your foot far out in the front, you more or less "drop" your foot from the highest point of your knee lift. Kick your back leg (or more accurately, push the ground backward). If you're "sitting in a bucket", your backled would hardly spend any time behind your C of G. I was reading a springing technique book from Japan; writen by a coach who coached the guy who won the bronze medal in 200m at Paris Worlc Championships. He said to "draw a triangle" with your leg. This means, as you "push-off" the ground, bring you leg forward quickly and a good knee lift (imaginng the pointy part of a triangle?); then drop your foot directly underneath. I use a "circle" to make the movement more smooth! ;o) I was talking to the coach of Reiko Tosa last year. He said one of the exercises they do a lot is to walk up the stairs, concentrating where your body is. He said, if things click, you get this feeling of you "rolling upward". He had Tosa in the marathon, though she dropped out with an injury, and Yoko Shibui in 10000m at Beijing Olympics. I actually experience that myself last summer when my Achilles was hurting so badly. I was too afraid to run naturally--which means landing on my forefoot to me--so I was landing on the heel. I noticed I was "sitting in a bucket", simply bringing my foot forward, not pushing in the back. It was actually more tiring. So I changed my position and tried to lean into it a bit more (not necessarily holding a forward "lean"). All of a sudden, I felt so much easier to run, as if I was rolling forward naturally....though my Achilles hurts like hell!!

Thanks Nobby, sounds like I am over thinking it again. Remember when I said I was going to buy you lunch, and I meant that, that day you should have dessert too. All earned.

Hey, Bugs: You shouldn't talk about our date after I said "I love you too"! People might talk... Seriously, when are you coming up and pick up your package? I think I'll be going to the Expo Friday afternoon... Greg McMillan is staying at my place and I'll go pick him up at the airport on Friday and go straight to the Expo. Of course, I might come back on Saturday as well??? Say, your signature caught my eyes; so your goal is to stay with the pacer at 15 mile mark? If they left you behind at 15 last time, you may want to consider dropping the pacing level one notch; so this time YOU can leave the pacer at 15 miles and pick up the pace...??? Just a thought.

Nobby, Well if it's a date, the guy has to buy so we better not call it a date. I will not be able to go to the expo till about 2:30-3:00 on Saturday as I need to drop my kids off at noon. My DH will be with. So let me know. Otherwise I think there is a race in your neighborhood Dec 6th that I will be up for. You opened another bucket of worms! Last TCM I ran with tired legs the entire way, I raced a 10K the week before, got a deep massage 3 days before, & had a terrible cold. Not sure which of these caused the tired legs? I also did not eat breakfast (kids ate my food) and did not drink the PowerAde (makes me vomit). I never "hit the wall" but my blood sugar levels drop too low, my head hurt and my concentration was not there. I ran with the four hour group, but expect to slow at the end. I ran a 4:06, what I expected but slowed for different reasons than I planned. I fell over as I crossed the finish line. Nothing like a dramatic finish. My next marathon I ran much smarter, although I did manage to hurt my feet in training and ended up aqua jogging for a few weeks. I was not trained as well this time around but I taught myself how to chug ultima well. It was 85F, and I ran a 3:58. My original plan was to run with the four hour group, redeem myself from two years ago. I think I could easily run a sub-four this time. I trained much harder for this marathon, the weather looks good, smarter runner, no injuries. I will not run with the 4:15 group. I want to go for the PR. Pace myself a 3:55 but not any faster, maybe add a minute for mile 22. Does your infinite knowledge think this is stupid? Maybe ask your friend Mr. McMillan if his calculator is right, he has me at a 3:48? MTA, sorry this is long. I suppose I could run with the four hour group till mile 15, but with the hills at the end I thought a little cushion for those hills would be good.

Bugs: Well, my limited knowledge ( ) says; if you don't PR this time around, you must have done something wrong a month ago! I think you're prepared mentally as well as physically. Now we'll see if Greg is right or...!!! I think sometimes the problem with message board like this; so you said "followed the pacer up to 15 miles and dropped off". It really doesn't show the whole story at all (and that's why I put three, not one, "?"). I think you have a well-thought-out plan, paid atthention to detail (drink and all), trained well and no immediate threat (injury) of any kiind... I believe you would do well. I might be able to sneak in to Expo again on Sat. My daughter has a voice lesson during that time and I might be able to just drop her off and swing by... We'll see... You've got my cell #. Call me if you want to see where I might be! ;o) I'll also put 12/6 on my calendar as well. Which race is it and what distance? That's the day before "The Day of Infamy"... ;o)

Thanks, Bugs. I might actually consider that Reindeer 5k; that sounds like fun (FUN?)... So what's your race in November then? Assuming I get my Achilles under control (which I think I'm on my way right now...), I'd like to do a 5k in mid-October and I was thinking I'd pack it up for this year. I usually do Turky 5k over Thanksgiving weekend in downtown but it gets pretty crowded. White sunglasses? I've never seen that... I'd better stick around and check them out then! ;o) I actually have a bit of a dilemma; I have two girls running TC10, one of which is my wife who's recovering from ACL surgery; Greg is bringing 2 of his runners who are shooting for 5-minute pace in full; and my new girl is around 3:30 shape... So I'd expect to be all over the place (and haven't quite figured out where to be and how to get there... Most probably, we'll try to be at 11 miles where you make a 90 degree right turn to Lake Nokomish, 20 miles where you go through "the wall", and on Summit at about 24 miles, and rush to the finish. We, both my wife and myself, have a bunch of friends who's running around 4HR so I'm sure, if not on the course, I'll spot you at the finish! But, if we don't talk before Sunday, GOOD LUCK!!! And HAVE FUN!!!!

White sunglasses? It's white FRAME! ;o) I was wondering if you were talking about actual white lense...

Well, Bugs... I wouldn't necessarily call myself "smart" (ask my wife! ) but I think I know a thing or two about Lydiardism. This was about 5 years ago I had some fight with this guy out in east coast who claimed he knew about Lydiard training more than Lydiard himself. I read his "paper" and, right away, I could see it's not quite right. That was the time we were working on forming Lydiard Foundation so we had to do something about it. We, including Lydiard himself, talked about this paper and decided to contact him to basically tell him to, well, knock it off! He got very offended and came back by saying he "read more books about or on Lydaird" than I ever had. Well, big mistake! ;o) I read "Running with Lydiard" first (well, actually second; I read "Run to the Top" translated in Japanese first but I had NO idea what it was all about at the time); then back to "Run to the Top", 1963 edition as well as 1967 edition. Then moved on to other people talking about Lydiardism; Ron Daws, Marty Liquori... That wasn't enough; I had to go all the way to New Zealand and actually talk to people Arthur personally coached... Then I became a coach in Japan and worked with live-athletes, applying Lydiard principles... I sit back and pretend I'm a Lydiard expert. Well, it didn't come from reading one book! ;o) Now you might think I might know what I'm talking about??? Or not?????