Have you ever been hazed or have you hazed someone? (Read 290 times)

     being effeminate on the field is a "bad thing", even in women's sports


    Vandy XC, SEC Champs.




      Appreciate your thoughtful comments. I agree with you 100%--wrong is wrong no matter who does it.



      I, in no way, mean to imply that being feminine and being an outstanding, tough athlete are in any way mutually exclusive.


      Indeed, the picture you posted proves my point.  That is, the fact that this group of women won the SEC Championship tells me that they do not run in the sexist stereotypical effeminate way.  Rather they most certainly are without question tough, rugged runners on the field of play.  To be a weak, passive "girly girl" (again, the sexist stereotype) would not be desirable, nor I suspect, tolerated on this squad.


      Plus, the menacing bats are anything but effeminate. Wink

        Since I know these girls, I guess I'd say that they believe that they can be stereotypically feminine and girly (yes, they wear make-up in the race) and tough and competitive and that they see no necessary contradiction between these social norms.


        I think they'd also wonder why you associate being a girly-girl with being weak and passive [yes, that's your association, not a universal association], and they would wonder this after smoking you on a cross-country course.


        [the bats were there because they were going to run the Louisville Classic, and I will leave it to your imagination whether they are wielding them in a masculine way or a feminine way -- or whether masculinity is necessarily associated with the idea of menace.]  winky



          With respect, I suspect we agree more than we disagree (especially since the first paragraph of both of our posts essentially make the same point).


          FWIW, I was not referring to the "girly girl" feminine stereotype as pertaining to appearance but rather to the negative sexist effeminate stereotype as to athletic performance.  I didn't invent the erroneous association you refer to (nor do I believe in it), but it does exist.  While it is perhaps not universal, it does appear to be at least part of the origin of some of these hazing tactics we've been discussing, which was the main point I was trying to make.


          Finally, I make it a habit not to refer to another's running prowess in these types of discussions, but be assured that if any of these women were to "smoke" me on a cross country course, I would certainly not be threatened by it.


          Far from it:  I admire accomplished athletes of all genders, including the champions you have pictured.  (And if one of those athletes is related to you or if you're their coach, my congrats to you as well! Smile  ).

            Okay -- you were making the point that gender stereotypes exist and that they (sometimes) structure understandings of athletic performance. I guess I see that as a sort of banal and obvious point, and yes I do agree with that (who wouldn't?) Was there a further point you were making? -- it seemed to me that you wanted not only to state a fact but to draw a normative judgment from that fact. Who are you disagreeing with or who is it that does not acknowledge that gender stereotypes and athletic performance (sometimes) are related?


            I just want to make the point that there is no logical connection between a gender stereotype (say, "girly") and weak or poor athletic performance. I guess that's also a banal and obvious point!


              Point taken (and agreed with).


              (PS: To your question:  I wasn't disagreeing with anyone (or meaning to be disagreeable).  My original post  was an attempt to answer to another poster's question regarding why so many of the hazing activities involve sexist imagery.)

                I was hazed in high school. We had some stupid little social club called Sub Deb and everyone desperately wanted in. All the girls knew the shit storm that awaited if asked to join but we didn't care. We were all carted out to a field, screamed at by other members and popular guys from the school, we had disgusting (some rotten) food and liquids poured on us, we had to do anything people told us to (mostly mud wrestle then stop to apologize before resuming the mock fighting). We had oil poured into our hair and were so disgusting afterward that each girl had to have a pickup truck to ride home in the back of before being taken to a car wash to try to wash off. Terrible. But, we knew what was coming and did it anyway. My initiation year was the last year it was like that. There was a MASSIVE crackdown after that.


                I don't feel sorry for people who knowingly go into it, but there's no excuse for doing terrible things to unsuspecting individuals. That, in my opinion, is more like bullying. I would go postal if I found out that someone bullied/hazed one of my children.

                I don't half-ass anything


                "I have several close friends who have run marathons, a word that is actually derived from two Swahili words: mara, which means 'to die a horrible death' and thon, which means 'for a stupid T-shirt.' Look it up." - Celia Rivenbark, You Can't Drink All Day if You Don't Start in the Morning


                The Irreverent Reverand

                  By a teammate on my track and cross country teams. One teammate was the primary bully, but the others let it happen.


                  Wooden board with rusty nails set up on locker room door to fall on me as I opened the door.

                  My gear variously stolen, hidden, pissed on.

                  Name calling.

                  Pushed into lockers.


                  Yet, we were teammates. And, I was one of the fastest guys on the team. But, I wasn't cool. So, I got picked on. I got bullied. And I wasn't strong enough - or stupid enough - to fight the guy who was doing this.


                  Yet, a few years after graduation, he apologized and asked for forgiveness. I am grateful for his apology and I forgave him, but the memories and experience still lingers with me.

                  Husband. Father of three. Lutheran pastor. National Guardsman. Runner. Political junkie. Baseball fan.

                  PRs: 3:27 marathon; 1:41 half; 45:07 10K; 23:26 5K; 6:02 mile; <12 parsecs Kessel Run

                  The Irreverent Reverand

                    Hazing sucks. Bullying sucks.


                    And why is all of this stuff homophobic/sexist in nature? Why do we humiliate men by making them wear lipstick or pink? Really? MTA: Why is a man wearing pink or lipstick a bad thing? Why are we teaching boys/men that "girly" things are shameful?

                    Amen. Amen. Amen.

                    Too much of this has to do with warped understandings of what it means to "be a man." Give me a freaking break. I've known too many "real men" who are abusive (physically and/or emotionally) toward women and children. Too often "being a man" includes being sexist, "tough," and other bullshit that maligns women and men who don't fit into the "caveman" framework of being a man. 

                    I'm glad for people to enjoy being tough and strong and embrace their gender identity. However, I don't need them to project their conception of what it means to be a man onto me or onto others.

                    Husband. Father of three. Lutheran pastor. National Guardsman. Runner. Political junkie. Baseball fan.

                    PRs: 3:27 marathon; 1:41 half; 45:07 10K; 23:26 5K; 6:02 mile; <12 parsecs Kessel Run