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Bert-o


I lost my rama

     

    This is going to be hard for must of you to conceive but I find nothing about running easy. I do not enjoy it at all and it's a labor regardless of the pace from the very first step. Still in all, the benefits outweigh the 20-30 min of shear hell so I focus on the big picture.

     

    Back in the days when I was a gym rat (I say that affectionately), I would lift first then run 3.5 miles 6 x per week.  It's doable to add more running time to your weight routine, but to do this slow down and gradually add more running volume.  I understand perfectly what you mean by not finding running easy.  However, when you run more, it will become easier over time (it can take a while).  Also, don't think 10:15 pace is necessarily slow.  I have many training runs at that pace and slower, but I'm a heck of a lot faster when I race.

    3/17 - NYC Half

    4/28 - Big Sur Marathon  DNS

    6/29 - Forbidden Forest 30 Hour

    8/29 - A Race for the Ages - will be given 47 hours

    JMac11


    RIP Milkman

      Sorry, but I'm not sure if you addressed this: what exactly is your goal in running? You said you don't really enjoy it, so is it to stay cardiovascularly fit? Lose weight? Something else?

      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

       

       

      ilanarama


      Pace Prophet

         

        This is going to be hard for must of you to conceive but I find nothing about running easy. I do not enjoy it at all and it's a labor regardless of the pace from the very first step. Still in all, the benefits outweigh the 20-30 min of shear hell so I focus on the big picture.

         

        Then slow down!

         

        Also, I find that I don't actually enjoy running or find it easy until I'm running around 20mpw.  Less volume than that, and every run is an effort.  It's only after building a small base that I feel like running isn't hugely effortful.  I've actually just gone through this rebuild effort (after an injury in the late summer) and so I know how you feel!  But running more makes running more easy.

          A correctly done everyday easy training run leaves you warmed up and feeling good.  The pace is conversational - you can talk easily in full sentences during the entire run.  If done right, you can do one of these every day without ever feeling beat up or worn down.  So run to the gym, then do your strength workouts.

           

          One rule of thumb is that the correct training pace is 2 to 3 minutes per mile slower than your 5k race pace.  Your ideal training pace would be toward the slower end of that range.  Keep the distance short enough to make it an easy run (as defined above).

          paul2432


            Another way to get faster that is probably a non-starter for you is to lose some weight.  220lbs at 5'9" is pretty heavy for someone trying to run fast over distance.  It doesn't matter that you're 10-12% body fat.  Weight is weight.

            Fredford66


            Waltons ThreadLord

              What's your stride rate?  Shorter, quicker steps might reduce the pounding. If you're over-striding you may be putting excess stress on your legs.

              5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 
              10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)

              Upcoming races: Clinton Country Run 15k, 4/27; Spring Distance Classic 5k, 4/28

               

              Half Crazy K 2.0


                I had lots of starts & stops when I first tried to start running. I'd go out for a short run, stuff would hurt, then I'd go back to cycling. When I moved and cycling outside was not a safe option, I decided I'd try running again (this was about 12 years ago). I actually started with just walking a 3.75 mile loop. Then I started adding in run/walk. First with run 1 minute, walk 4, then run 2 minutes, walk 3, etc. It took awhile before I even considered all running. But keeping the run intervals short for quite some time got me used to the pounding and kept soreness to a minimum.

                 

                Have you looked at something like Couch to 5k?  And would you be willing to add some running to the elliptical/bike day?

                snake84


                   

                  Back in the days when I was a gym rat (I say that affectionately), I would lift first then run 3.5 miles 6 x per week.  It's doable to add more running time to your weight routine, but to do this slow down and gradually add more running volume.  I understand perfectly what you mean by not finding running easy.  However, when you run more, it will become easier over time (it can take a while).  Also, don't think 10:15 pace is necessarily slow.  I have many training runs at that pace and slower, but I'm a heck of a lot faster when I race.

                   

                  Okay, you're about as crazy as it gets. (I say that affectionately) Let me ask because this is a huge factor; Did you  train legs and back also? Mainly Squats and Deadlifts. I am damn sure I could run 4x/wk if legs were not trained. If you did, did you see a reduction in one facet of your training?

                  snake84


                    Sorry, but I'm not sure if you addressed this: what exactly is your goal in running? You said you don't really enjoy it, so is it to stay cardiovascularly fit? Lose weight? Something else?

                     

                    Just to stay fit. Weight loss is not that big of a factor considering my total caloric deficit for an entire week of cardio maybe 1,500 cals. I would need to double that to lose a pound a week. In the summer I will do a cut and lose 5 lbs. That 5 lbs makes a serious difference in my vascularity and muscle separation My TDEE is around 3,300 cal/day currently.

                     

                    So to answer your question, I do it for the health of it. I also do it because in my chosen sport, 90% of the guys couldn't even complete a mile without walking. I like things that set me apart; it's weird, I know.

                    snake84


                       

                      Then slow down!

                       

                      Also, I find that I don't actually enjoy running or find it easy until I'm running around 20mpw.  Less volume than that, and every run is an effort.  It's only after building a small base that I feel like running isn't hugely effortful.  I've actually just gone through this rebuild effort (after an injury in the late summer) and so I know how you feel!  But running more makes running more easy.

                       

                      Sorry to hear about your injury. There is nothing more depressing then an injury to a serious athlete. And thank you for your candor on running being an effort. I always felt if something was easy, everyone would be doing it.

                       

                      If I run faster, won't the pain end quicker? lol I understand what your saying. My wife runs with her GF's and they chat it up and have a good time laughing about their stupid husbands. They bang out 6 like nothing. I'm like, "Talk while you're running? Uh, that's not happening with me. I have a screw loose when it comes to ramping things down; I push and after pushing will not be happy.

                       

                      I envy those of you that can just go out for a run and enjoy it; for in that is longevity in the sport. It's the same reason I can spend 2 hr in the gym; because I enjoy it.

                      snake84


                        Another way to get faster that is probably a non-starter for you is to lose some weight.  220lbs at 5'9" is pretty heavy for someone trying to run fast over distance.  It doesn't matter that you're 10-12% body fat.  Weight is weight.

                         

                        That is so true and basic but it's hard to get some people to understand that.

                         

                        A good male long distance runner at 5'9" would be about 165 lbs (ballpark) Put on a 55 lb jacket and see how fast you run then. The other factor often missed is the extra 55 lbs of muscle requiring more O2 uptake.

                        snake84


                          What's your stride rate?  Shorter, quicker steps might reduce the pounding. If you're over-striding you may be putting excess stress on your legs.

                           

                          Good point and that was kind of brought out by one of the members recommending a "Glide" motion. I put this to the test on Tue and the jury is still out. The glide seems to be placing more stress on my quads. I think its because the leg is more bent on impact and transfers the stress from the skeletal system more into the muscular system.

                          snake84


                            I had lots of starts & stops when I first tried to start running. I'd go out for a short run, stuff would hurt, then I'd go back to cycling. When I moved and cycling outside was not a safe option, I decided I'd try running again (this was about 12 years ago). I actually started with just walking a 3.75 mile loop. Then I started adding in run/walk. First with run 1 minute, walk 4, then run 2 minutes, walk 3, etc. It took awhile before I even considered all running. But keeping the run intervals short for quite some time got me used to the pounding and kept soreness to a minimum.

                             

                            Have you looked at something like Couch to 5k?  And would you be willing to add some running to the elliptical/bike day?

                             

                            Couch? How out of shape do you think I am? JUST KIDDING!

                            I have seen that program and I have a problem with it personally. I can not stop and start. Once I stop, it's over. My stuff locks up like a rusty bolt.

                             

                            As for soreness, DOMS is a good friend of mine. There never is a day that goes by that something on my body is not sore from the lift the day before or stiff from the lift I just did that day. I'm use to it, it's a part of life.

                            Fredford66


                            Waltons ThreadLord

                               

                              Good point and that was kind of brought out by one of the members recommending a "Glide" motion. I put this to the test on Tue and the jury is still out. The glide seems to be placing more stress on my quads. I think its because the leg is more bent on impact and transfers the stress from the skeletal system more into the muscular system.

                               

                              I can't speak to gliding, but Jack Daniels' book speaks of getting up to 180 steps per minute when running.  I can achieve that when racing, but my easy runs tend to be around 170.  Still, I see a lot of runners with big, long, slow strides that can stress the joints.  It may work for some people, but from what I've read, most are better with shorter, quicker strides.

                              5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 
                              10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)

                              Upcoming races: Clinton Country Run 15k, 4/27; Spring Distance Classic 5k, 4/28

                               

                              Altair5


                              Runs in the rain

                                Just a few more comments:

                                 

                                I hope it was helpful to try running with less impact, perhaps with some sort of glide like movement or shorter quicker strides like Fredford66 suggests. A warning, though, to pick your legs up enough to avoid tripping or stumbling on a sidewalk crack or rock or something! You will not want to do a face plant!

                                 

                                Runners want to weigh as little as possible since every pound can effect performance, one book I have suggests 2 pounds for each inch of height giving you an ideal running weight of 138 pounds! But in your case you are already very lean and it may be unhealthy to lose much more fat and as a bodybuilder I am sure you don't want to lose muscle mass, so paul2432s advice would not be much help for you.

                                 

                                To build up structural elements like tendons and joints takes more time than building up strength and pace so it may be that your strength for now exceeds your ability to adapt to the running stress, although with your weight that may be difficult even with a lot of time.

                                 

                                When you run your body takes time to switch over to "running mode", the circulation has to get going, muscles warmed up and I'm sure right down to cellular functions like mitochondria making energy. Like ilanarama says it becomes easier as you add more miles. I find that in the first mile or two it can be difficult to even want to run, then you may fall into a "zone" where you are not even thinking about it, running seems as relaxing as sitting in the easy chair! I even find that I may even want to speed up at the 8 mile part. Of course I may soon tire after that and part of running is to learn to continue and learn to run when feeling fatigued. But you are not trying to be a distance runner so maybe this is irrelevant.

                                 

                                I am trying to train to qualify to run the Boston Marathon, meaning I need to do a marathon in under 4 hours 10 minutes for my age group (will be 67 in June). This takes up much of my spare time and energy so I have little to spare to devote to developing my other muscles. Many runners do exercises for core strength. They also may try to balance opposing muscles to the ones overdeveloped from running. This is thought to help balance and form. Most will avoid bodybuilding as it adds weight and huge muscles may make it awkward to move fast. Someone at work commented on how skinny my calves were after all my running and I said "yeah, but I have more definition" and changed my stance so they could see the band of muscles. Looking at pictures of some elite runners their calves just look like the bone with some thick cords attached to them. Anyway, I do think runners would benefit from some upper body strength. Your arms do get a bit of workout from just swinging them back and forth for several hours. I do have a bench for weightlifting but have not used it for a long time. I think I have about 80 pounds on the barbell right now because that was how much I could bench press 12 times before I could no longer lift it. I would do these slowly, not with the quick "fast twitch" jerks that you might use because my interest was in having controlled strength for any sort of work I had to do around the yard or at my job. I also have those hand barbells and have in the past done push-ups and pull-ups.  I guess I am out of shape now, although I did get a workout shoveling snow this winter and in my disability aide job I have to lift people in and out of wheelchairs. I am sure I would benefit if I added some strength training. It will help when I have to turn over the garden soon. I just pulled that 250 pound bench press out of my hat, I would find it an accomplishment if I could just bench my own 170 pound weight, and I know that you exercise different muscle groups each day, but did not know you only do the bench press once a week.

                                Long distance runner, what you standin' there for?
                                Get up, get out, get out of the door!

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