Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
howdy everyone!
congrats rlk, McB and CK on your respective races!
rlk - good job on pacing the race properly. I have not much more to offer than what has already been said, but I do understand your frustration after training so hard. Hopefully this was a learning experience for you. And you still got a pretty shiny PR a few weeks back anyway!
McB - kudos on completing yet another FM. Doing this as a training run is crazy, but I guess that's what you do now as an ultra runner. Also, shame on them on the beer thing!
CK - congrats on the PR! A PR in a hillier course with bad conditions is quite an achievement! and I agree with the approach of profiting on your fantastic training cycle by doing some more races. I'd be tempted to look for another HM actually. But don't listen to me, I raced 2 FM in 2 weeks.
max - that ultra story about the dude walking with his parents is lovely. It is true that it's quite liberating to run a race without a goal in mind. You enjoy a side of the event that you wouldn't if you're focused on racing. Which makes me understand your desire to run that race as a fun run, despite every sign pointing to DNS.
DkW - good to see you already putting in some speed wotkouts less than 2 weeks after Botswana.
OMR - glad to hear the good news! Fitness will come back easy. I'd say 8 min pace as marathon effort after what you went through is not bad at all.
SC - ha, great picture! How did you find it without a bib number?
kk - good luck with the move and packing!
brew - in the end, are you doing the 4 week cycle or the 2Q Daniels plan?
I'm looking for new marathon shoes. I'm having a hard time finding the adios 3 in my proper size (EU 48.5 or 49) and I suspect that even if I find them, they may be a tad narrow. I had the 48s but they are too small. For the Vienna marathon I ran in a new pair of Kinvaras 9. I really liked them but was not too sure about the low drop (the bottom of my feet seems to hurt a bit after running in them). So, if anyone has a suggestion for light shoes, with a 8-12 mm drop, I'm all ears. I've been scouting the NB 1400, the nike zoom fly and the nike elite 9. DkW, I saw on strava you tried the adidas sub2 (or maybe I'm wrong), what did you think of them?
Also, looking at using a Daniels plan for my Fall marathon. I want something shorter than 18 weeks though. So, I was thinking of using the 12 week plan, but it seems brutal. The first quality run of the program is 4E + 8M + 1T + 6M + 1T + 2E = 22 miles with 14 at MP and 2 at threshold. And then he has some runs that are 22-23 miles long with 13-14 miles at threshold (!) in total. If anyone has experience with it, I'm very interested in hearing it. Another option is to go for the 2Q again, and cut it a bit short.
fb - are you registered for Valencia already? I'm still debating, and am even considering doing Amsterdam in October and then do Valencia 6 weeks later, as I seem to recover relatively quickly.
5K - 18:03 (5.18) | 10K - 37:58 (2.18) | HM - 1:20:45 (9.18) | FM: 2:57:59 (10.18)
I never understood this as this is the type of workout that I would do at the end of training and then start tapering right after. I never did that many miles at pace and this is 14 MP and 2 faster making 16 miles with an avg pace faster than MP. I would be burnt out half way through the plan. My recommendation would be to ignore these sessions at the beginning of the plan and just put in the 20/22 miles instead.
PR's: Mar - 2:44;50 1/2 Mar - 1:16:59 10 Mile 58:03 10K - 33:30 (Back in High School)
On the comeback trail.
pie man
I just bought a pair of 1400s, but I plan on using them for track and short races. I did the last marathon in whatever flavor of vazees I had, but that was a gamble because I had the blister issues and they didn't seem to activate that (I even wore them around the day before to be safe). They are most definely toast now. .
11:11 3,000 (recent)
Pesto ~ Is that from the "Elite" plan?
OMR ~ Great news on lack of pain/progress.
Are you set on keeping the weekly mileage where it's at? Running more, which means more easy/slow stuff, is usually path towards improving -- especially for the marathon. Increase mileage to 66-72 mpw (that's 20%, which should be manageable) -- or a touch more if you are handling it -- and scale back (or eliminate) the track work (e.g., if you're running 5K pace stuff now, slow it down to threshold or even b/w HM and MP; shift your threshold/tempo run down to MP+5%) and replace w/ light fartleks, progressions, and moderate steady state runs.
This is great feedback. I will start reducing my track work. I am planing to replace that with a MP run . I will see how I can increase weekly mileage and slow down.
Cobra Commander Keen
OMR - Good to hear that your form is looking good and that you're on your way back.
Max - Best of luck over the weekend.
Pesto - Thanks! I have been looking at other races, but the only half within the next month or so isn't even a certified course. I am thinking about a 5k in the next couple weeks, though. Have you tried shoekicker to find those shoes? Unless I'm mistaken on the US size conversion or the full name of the shoes you could get them at Holabird. "Adidas Adizero Adios Boost" is just a ridiculous name. Right up there with some that Nike comes up with.I'm almost certainly going to use an 18 week JD plan for my fall marathon - I used a 12 week one for my half and frankly by the time the taper hit it just seemed like the training cycle was really short. 13-14 miles at threshold would likely be about MP. I think the 10-12 miles at MP I did during 14 mile LRs really helped me out this past cycle, for what it's worth, and I did enjoy the MP+ threshold workout(s).
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
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dkg - to be fair, the plan does say that you should have been "training" before starting it. It is supposed to be the last 12 weeks before the marathon. Still, I find some of the workouts just ridiculous. Thanks for the suggestion on running 22 miles LR, that's a good idea.
dad - not sure, it is from the third edition, and it's called the "Final 12 weeks" plan. It may have been called elite in previous editions. Have you used the elite before? Or is it really for elite athletes?
PJ - I'd love to hear about how you like the nb 1400s once you start using them.
CK - thanks for the links, I had never seen shoekicker before! Unfortunately, they only have up to size 13 US, which is 48 EUR. This is the same size I ran Paris with, I need at least a half size bigger. Thanks for taking the time though!
Also, I tried the 2Q for Berlin and believe I peaked a bit early. For Paris I also used an 18 week plan (Pfitz 18/55) and did not feel 100% fresh at the start line. Maybe it's just the "taper" feeling, but I think I'd like to try maybe 14-15 weeks, just to experiment. I do remember feeling much better before my HM during the cycles than before the FM. Was planning on adding to the 12 week plan, but maybe I'll just start the 2Q plan on week 4. The 4-week cycle is definitely out of the question for me (starting training in April for an October marathon sounds like too much!).
Not sure if it's the same, but that type of workout is characteristic of the elite plan. Sub-elite at best. Certainly sub 2:40. You're not there -- yet!
Pesto -- I haven't registered for Valencia yet, but we are planning on going (fingers crossed on staying healthy). I contacted the organizers, and it usually does't fill up very fast. We might even have a rental house there for the winter, and ESG is thinking of coming. If anyone has a European, fast race planned for the autumn (Max?), it could a fun meet up. Think Paella.
A six week break might work really well for you. If you hit a home-run in Amsterdam, it would be a great fun-run with really good seafood, and if Amsterdam is weird, it would be a great fallback race.
Shoes -- I like KInvara. The heel drop is pretty low, but if you can used to it they have a nice balance between comfort and weight. My main every day shoe is a 7 oz neutral shoe from Decathalon. Just soft enough.
OMR -- great to hear.
Max -- good luck with that not being too smart thing.
Me -- I did two 50 miles weeks right after racing, and I'm feeling a little tired and beat up. Jet-lag and drinking too much probably don't help.
m: 2:55:04 | 10k: 37:14 | 50mile: 9:35
dad - thanks for the feedback! yikes! I'll go for the 2Q plan then I think, maybe modify it a bit by shortening it and changing some workouts.
fb - it was my thought exactly to have Valencia as a back up race in case things go south in ams. It does sound like a lot of fun. And thanks for the input on the shoes, I agree in that I really liked the cushion-to-weight relationship. I guess I have to run a bit more on them to get my legs used to the low drop. I just don't want an injury.
Mother of Cats
howdy everyone! DkW - good to see you already putting in some speed wotkouts less than 2 weeks after Botswana.
Heh - actually it's been more than two weeks - Botulism was on April 16. I took 7 days no running, and then 7 days of easy mileage. Then did the hill "workout" which wasn't very much of a workout given the short duration of the repeat and the lengthy recovery.
As for the sub-2s... I've got mixed feelings about them. They are quite light and quite cushioned, but without the plate of the Vaporfly. A bit too cushioned for me to wear on a regular basis - I wore them yesterday, and one of my ankles is a bit sore today (same issue I always get with cushioned shoes or softer less stable running surfaces).
In terms of weight, they fall between the Adios 3 and the Takumi Sen. They're also stiffer than the Adios 3 but not as stiff as the Takumi Sen or Adios 2. Disappointing, because I love a stiff shoe. The boost seems to be distributed perfectly evenly on the sole, rather than towards the heel like it is in the Adios.
The heeldrop felt very minimal. I noticed it, which surprised me, since I regularly train in the Nike Free, which has a very minimal heel-drop as well. If you prefer a higher heel, this might not be the shoe for you.
The Sub-2 does seem wider than the Adios. Keep in mind that the Adios comes in mens and womens, while the Sub-2 is unisex. So the Sub-2 might not be any wider than the men's Adios.
***
Upper body weights, core, and 9 "miles" pool-running today.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
And now, in my role as Thread Usurper and Ruthless Dictator (TURD)...
Arvind - if you are going to participate on this thread, I ask that you fully participate. Please do not continue to show up at odd occasions, dump your training week, ignore everyone else, ask for advice on your own running, and then disappear again. Acting in that way is selfish and disruptive to the thread.
I am not saying that you need to participate every day, or that you need to give shout outs to everyone else on the thread. But there is a middle ground in which one both gives and takes. Over the past 18+ months, over two separate message boards, there has been very little give from you, only take. And that deprives the rest of us of the insights I'm sure you could provide.
Either contribute to the thread by commenting on others' training, offering congratulations, or providing other insight, or leave.
To anyone else relatively new to this thread - I understand if you think I'm being mean here. Please understand in turn that this has been a recurring issue for sometime, and my concerns here have been been stated by others several times before, politely and nicely. But the message has not gotten through, leaving it to me as TURD-2018 to spell it out as explicitly as I can.
I am just used to seeing plans use progression as you get closer to the marathon. With this being so far out, how do you progress? If I remember it correctly I believe it threw in more tempo pace and less MP which was just nuts. I could be recalling this incorrectly though.
I also know it is the Elite plan and will say that that is not a lie. I remember a while back when I reviewed this plan it scared me so I tapped out right from from the get go.
Speed Surplus
"And then he has some runs that are 22-23 miles long with 13-14 miles at threshold (!) in total."
So, like a half marathon race effort, plus 8-9 extra miles?
"SC - ha, great picture! How did you find it without a bib number?"
They were organized by time of day, and I vaguely remembered what time I went running. It was hours into the race - I think I was starting as it had been going for 2+ hours already - this was a half marathon - and the photographer was stationed midway through the loop. Needless to say, my pictures were close to the very end.
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
I do believe the Daniels Elite Plan was originally designed for sub 2:10 Mararthoners.