2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 674 times)

madisonrunner


    Nimmals - I'll be wearing an orange singlet and am bib 5825.  I'll also probably be the only guy holding a water bottle at the start.

     

    JT - Can you change my goal on the front page to 2:34?  Sub 2:30 would have been the goal if I had PR'd at Lakefront.

     

    Maurten is amazing stuff.  That's what my bottle will be filled with.

    CalBears


       Maurten is amazing stuff.  That's what my bottle will be filled with.

       

      Powergel is a great stuff too - very easy to get in during a race - that's what I used from the moment I started running in 2011 till the last year where I tried to use Gu (or Cliff - not sure - Powergel disappeared from the US market and the previous stores were exhausted ) - and, probably,  a coincidence - at the last year's marathon I failed - the one and only failed marathon - I didn't break sub 3. Ok, probably another one was when I failed after 9 consecutive marathon PRs - I was so excited to get number 10 that I overtrained and injured my hamstring. Based on that I conclude that Powergel is a great stuff - though I used Double Latte with 100mg of caffeine and they do not carry Double Latte anymore  Probably bad sign again for the upcoming race? 

      paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

      JMac11


      Taper Czar

        CIMers - is it worth it to check a bag if you are staying downtown? I will be staying at the Hyatt.

        5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

        Swim5599


          CIMers - is it worth it to check a bag if you are staying downtown? I will be staying at the Hyatt.

           

          I did but only because I wanted to wait until the last minute to put on my rocket shoes.  Only thing in my checked bag was my old trainers.  All this to say it’s probably not worth it.

          HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04 

          Andres1045


            Andres - I am still amazed people call your 10K in Spain a failure - it would be a big PR for me - even when I was in really great shape back 4-5 years ago. But Houston is so close actually - not sure if it would make a difference for me if I started doing speed workouts for that at this time - for me it would be too late - but you are much younger, so, I would try - or at least a few Hansons style weeks?

             

            I need to do something. But I'm not sure what. My thought was kinda between two Hanson's inspired workout progressions.

             

            1. 4-5 weeks of 1.5x4...3x2 and back down (so 6 miles total of longer intervals) at a little faster than HMP, or

            2. 4-5 weeks of 4x2miles...3x3miles and back down (so 8 to 9 miles total) at a little faster than MP.

             

            With both, I'd do a harder long run where a big chunk is approaching MP. Everything else during the week is easy.

             

            The slightly faster than HMP stuff has worked very well for me in the past, but for half marathons. If I can get 5 weeks of that in, I can make a big jump in my half times (usually taking a half time of around 1:23 down to sub 1:20 or close). But is that counterproductive for the full? With the other option, I kind of already get that pace range in my long runs. So do I need it two days in a week?

             

            Any thoughts?

            Upcoming races: Madrid (half) April 2020

            JMac11


            Taper Czar

              Andres - I've gone on long rants on these boards about how I think people are not doing enough lactate threshold in this forum in order to be successful at the marathon. Yes, a lot of that is because we have runners over 40 who feel they will be injured if they try this stuff, which makes complete sense and I understand. However, if you can physically handle it, you will get more bang for your buck by doing workouts like 3x2 or TLT at lactate threshold vs. longer marathon pace sections. I also think that's especially true given you want to do your long runs with finishes near MP, since you'll be training the MP system during those runs.

               

              I would also mix up the style of LT runs you're doing, not just constant repeats. So if you had 4 weeks of this, I would do something like this (in Daniels speak), assuming you wanted to run these workouts in 14-16 miles, which is about right given your mileage (I was doing most of these around 18 miles but I was also doing 75+ MPW):

               

              2E + 2T + 6E + 2T + 2E

              10E + 3T + 2E (this is like a fast finish Medium Long Run)

              5E + 2T + 5E + 2T + 1E

              6E + 3x2T + 2E

               

              If you can knock these 4 workouts out, you'll be in great shape. I think based upon your half marathon and your 10K, I would try to knock these out around 6:10 pace.

              5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

              Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

              Running Problem


              Curmudgeon

                jmac Check the weather and decide if you want to sit around for 15 minutes in that. Bag check is free and easy to get back after the race especially with how fast you'll be finishing.

                 

                andres To me those weeks (hansons 4x1.5, JD 4x2T) have the same focus. Pushing lactate threshold father and farther. The pace at which you do them might vary slightly. They have the same goal. when I finished 3x2M with Hansons I felt good enough to do a 4th. Pushing the pace harder might change that. I see them as running 6 miles at HM or T pace.

                Hanson's focuses on just doing marathon focused workouts. At what point are you going threshold or faster in a marathon? What's the benefit of the workout you're doing and what is your focus?

                I have a half scheduled in April. I'll probably follow a JD plan because it's popular here, and I can access it easily. I probably wouldn't follow Hanson's marathon plan for a half and adjust the Thursday runs to 2E + 10 HM + 2E. I guess since I wouldn't do the

                JMac makes some good points about your long runs finishing at goal race pace. This is what I love about running. There are so many ways to do it wrong. 

                 

                calbers man, are you already sandbagging CIM? I need some old muscle out there helping me along. All those young punks don't have your experience and wisdom to pass along.

                 

                 

                cim plans: I might skip a checked bag this year just for something new, and I plan to stay on the bus as long as possible. If there is a drink/snack you want at the finish pack it in there. Current weather looks like "feels like 44 with light rain" so I might forgo the whole drop bag idea and just show up ready to race. Maybe I'll huddle up at the gas station with everyone else trying to stay dry.

                Snow shouldn't be a problem for getting there and I'm going straight to the expo. Dinner is inspired by dwave and while not IDENTICAL to her choice...it's a burrito from a Mexican food place. I mean....it worked after a few runs during the week and should be digested by race time. I plan to stick with the pacer all day long. He paced 2016 with a perfect 3:00:00. If I'm feeling good towards the end I might pick it up but right now I'll take a 2:59:59 over a 3:00:01 if it means I have to push off thoughts of a 2:59:30 because I picked up the pace a little with a 5k to go. I'll probably start a little behind them and "catch up" over the first mile or two just to mentally feel more confident I'm slightly ahead of pace. Sub 3 for me!

                 

                Bib 3062

                someone should put a list together or something.

                 

                EDIT: Oh and I think I got my eating under control. I haven't allowed myself any snacks this week except for a fig bar, an RX bar and three ritz crackers last night.

                2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                jayluf


                  Bib #6497

                   

                  CIM forecast looking slightly wet (fine with this) and warm/humid (relatively speaking; not fine with this) and a slight headwind/cross wind. Temps look low 50s with dew point between 52 - 54. Ideal for most, but definitely going to have adjust my plan/expectations. I just can't seem to race in anything over 90 TDP!

                  CalBears


                    CIMers - is it worth it to check a bag if you are staying downtown? I will be staying at the Hyatt.

                     

                    Not sure what staying downtown has to do with checking in your bag... Yes, Hyatt is right across the finish line but are you going to go there straight after you finish? Even without eating a hot soup (I think vegan is served too there) and drinking a cold beer? As Brew mentioned - it doesn't cost you anything and you can get your things back in less than a few minutes after you finish.

                     

                    Btw, we are staying at Hyatt too. For some reason my family like to go to some Ramen soup place in the evening - I do not think they take reservations, so, we always wait for some time there. so, if you willing you can join too Smile Also, you probably know but the Hyatt has checkout at 1pm for marathoners - so, you have plenty of time to get back there, take a shower and write a detailed race report about your sub 2:36 experience Smile

                    paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                    JMac11


                    Taper Czar

                      As I said earlier, the weather has looked like crap for the entire period. Look at Friday and Saturday. Awful racing conditions, on top of what last weekend was. Sunday looks doable though, it's not perfect with that wind and slightly warmer than desired, but I think we've probably gotten a little greedy with what to expect out of CIM. It's still going to be a pretty good day, not sure why you feel you need an adjustment jayluf.

                       

                      Cal - regarding bag check, I think it's more just the chaos I'm used to with normal bag checks that it's easier not to check. But I keep forgetting this race is 1/5 the size of NYC.

                      5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                      Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                      CalBears


                         

                        Hanson's focuses on just doing marathon focused workouts. At what point are you going threshold or faster in a marathon? What's the benefit of the workout you're doing and what is your focus?

                         

                         

                        JMac is right actually - people need education Smile I am surprised you are asking this question - threshold is not about running at it during a marathon, it's about making your marathon pace faster, moving you to a next level, after you get through those torturous LT workouts. No doubt about it - but it just so painful...- so, in many cases in the past I was choosing to run double mileage than to go through pain and anticipation of LT work.

                         

                        Brew - not sandbagging, just not sure like in the past what to expect. In the past I was setting goals based on my previous marathon result and take into account how good the training cycle was - right now my latest marathon time is 3:02 from a year ago and there is uneven running between those events - so, no information to use - but he goal is to keep to 6:50 pace for as long as I could. I used to have great execution skills but those were mostly based on good training load throughout the whole year - last few years I basically only run for 3-4 months before CIM - so, it's hard to execute perfectly. Plus, each of us is so individual - that's why I have never run with anybody, because I believe each of us has its own rhythm.

                         

                        Bib 5636

                        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                          I'm enjoying all the pre-CIM banter here...takes my mind off of not running. Now the biggest excitement for me is how long can I do a plank 

                           

                          JMac: I did not mean to imply you are a sandbagger; you are probably the most consistent on here for executing a great race every time you step to the line. What I meant is you have a record of lowering our expectations for how your race will go in the 1-2 weeks prior. We all do it to some extent; Jayluf just did it with talking about how the weather will not be ideal for him, TDP over 90, etc (nothing wrong with that Jayluf, I totally agree as someone who prefers cold racing weather). You (JMac) just had a tendency to really stack up the excuses why your race will not go well. And then you would hit it out of the park with a huge PR!

                           

                          Cal: I like your advice: run when my body wants to, not my mind. That is the exact situation; my mind really wants to but the body is not quite there.

                           

                          Madison: I put you for 2:34 but I hope you and Nimmals will be aggressive. As I said to Nimmals hopefully this is just some pre-race trying to lower people's expectations 

                           

                          Andres: I'm excited for January and your race and also Weather's. Though I'm avoiding strava lately it seems like you've put together a strong cycle so far. As far as your workout question I would tend towards what JMac suggested, but honestly just the straight Hanson's strength workouts would be fine. You seem to nail those and are quite comfortable with them so maybe those are the way to go.

                          2:52:16 (2018)

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            Quick drop-in.  Why would runners over 40 be concerned about injury from LT work?  I've always considered that relatively safe.  It's training at 5K pace and faster that can be risky in the short term (though I would argue that consistently and carefully training at those paces regularly will actually reduce injury risk in the long run).

                             

                            I think that there is no one-size-fits-all rule in training, but I also think that doing LT work is hugely beneficial for the marathon - raise your LT, and you raise your potential MP as well - the two move in tandem.  At the same time, I would try not to hammer that system.  Poking it once every 7-10 days is sufficient.

                             

                            Checking bags at CIM - I think it's personal.  Bag check works well there, without big lines.  It all depends on what you want at the start and finish.  I almost always check a bag, just because I like to bring a lot of stuff to the start (at CIM 2016 I actually brought both a sportsbra and a singlet to the start, and then changed into the singlet once I confirmed the sportsbra would be a bit too cold).  I also like to have a phone at the finish, along with some snacks for post-race since I often can't eat most of what is offered at the finish.

                             

                            But if you're just checking a warm sweatshirt for after the race, you can certainly do without.  They gave out nice heat-sheet ponchos last year.  And the finish chute is pretty short - no forcing you to walk half-a mile like some other races.  If you want, you can easily be out of the finish area and on your way back to the hotel in less than 10 minutes.

                             

                            Andres - I'm always amused when you refer to my fast recovery - I always feel like I'm one of the slower recoverers here!

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            CalBears


                              As I said earlier, the weather has looked like crap for the entire period. Look at Friday and Saturday. Awful racing conditions, on top of what last weekend was. Sunday looks doable though, it's not perfect with that wind and slightly warmer than desired, but I think we've probably gotten a little greedy with what to expect out of CIM. It's still going to be a pretty good day, not sure why you feel you need an adjustment jayluf.

                               

                               

                              Come on - "Sunday looks doable though"? Wow - what did you expect I am not sure - high 40s with showers (not rain) and no sun - that still bad? I think it's damn good. Well, yes, I agree, 38oF with no wind and no sun would be perfect but man, we are talking about weather - even CIM cannot guarantee that kind of stuff Smile I would just take all the negative thoughts about weather out and just meditate - it's all going to be good....

                              paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                              Running Problem


                              Curmudgeon

                                Thankfully PG&E doesn't have control over the sun. I did practice for this though. 

                                 

                                Jmac Weather probably won't change very much from now until race day. Wind would be about the only thing but I'm planning on a few miles with rain during the start, and a partly cloudy finish. 

                                 

                                 

                                Do taper pains include headaches from checking the weather? Seriously, BOTT or GTFO right? I said the weather would be pretty much what it is forecasted to be. Rain is actually scheduled to stop, but mother nature is going to push your buttons up until the last minute about what the weather will be on race day. Oh and it's snowing today for my run. It could be worse than cloudy with occasional showers and a breeze. Shit weather Friday and Saturday can blow through and give us better race day. I'll take this all day long. I didn't go out and train in horrible conditions just to shut down on race day. I went out there because it PREPARED me for race day. At least it isn't a 20 mph headwind and everyone will be looking to tuck in behind instead of lead. Checker or wreckers baby.

                                 

                                cal true. I think I understand having no recent races to use for comparison. I took a year off racing on roads and had no clue where to start when coming back. I still think you'll perform well. See you out there.

                                 

                                JMac As DW said, the finish isn't anything like NYC, Chicago, Boston, or a major marathon. check out the finish area on the map. You'll walk through the roundabout at the capitol with a few people around you, Ahead of you is the bell, then off to the right is bag pickup. Since you're downtown it might work to bring a layer of clothes you don't care about getting back and putting those in the drop bag. Maybe you want to hang out and have a beer for 5 minutes before racing to the airport. I know you're pretty short on time.

                                 

                                I might be heading to the sacramento area earlier than Saturday. It's one of those "if we go now nothing will happen, if we wait something will" kind of decisions. Too much work NOT to take advantage of a free place to stay. Oh and I just reserved parking for $5 next to the finish line. HOPEFULLY CIM isn't considered a special event and my wife has to pay extra.

                                2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.