2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 670 times)

Swim5599


    High 40 s with some drizzle sounds down right crushable if you ask me.

    HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04 

    Andres1045


      JMac - Thanks for the suggestion. I think I might try one or two of those (or maybe all). But I am curious. The option I was leaning towards seems a little harder, I think (and I generally agree that the MP option doesn't really seem worth it with my typical long runs). It would generally look something like 2 miles easy, then 3 x 2miles at a little faster than half (so probably 6:00 to 6:05 going off my 6:10 half), then 2 easy to cool down. The middle part would vary, going from 1.5 mile lengths up to 3, then back down. So you think what I was suggesting was too intense? Or do you think having those long periods of easy miles replacing some of the faster stuff make it more difficult?

       

      Jayluf - You're crazy if you think 50F with a slight headwind and a little rain will be too warm. That sounds cold to me. I can't imagine you'd be overheated at any point if that's what it ends up being. I'd easily take that over 50F on a sunny day with a 40DP, which gets you to your 90TDP.

       

      Brew - Hansons has a HM plan which is super un-creative. They essentially kept the speed intervals the same, lopped off the total distance for the MP sections, and turned them in to HMP sections, and then did a find-and-replace for GMP to HMP so the longer intervals are 10s faster than HMP. I did the 10s faster than HMP stuff, leaving everything else out. That's done me really well leading up to a half.

       

      DW - I guess, in part, it's how you get back up to the higher mileage so quickly. I'm always impressed with that. Not only do I not introduce workouts, but I also struggle to get back in to higher mileage within a month or more. It's both physical and mental. You seem to bounce back a lot quicker than you give yourself credit for.

      Upcoming races: Houston Full January 2020

      Brewing Runner


      3:56 marathoner at heart

        Andres that's about as half assed as you could do. It's about on par with what I'd slap together being a Hanson's FanBoi. Thursday HMP runs, Tuesday speed work. Weekend long runs of (what is 16 divided by 26 times 13). I would probably gravitate towards that. I might also avoid it and try something new to maybe get out of the rut of doing only hansons because hansons is great and so I do hansons. Try both types of workouts and see how it goes. Maybe a Hansons week and a JD week.

        1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

        5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

        10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

        Half: 1:29* (2019 CIM first half)

        Marathon 2:59* (2019 CIM)

        Annual Miles 2,121 miles

        *CIM is a NET downhill course and the weather is unpredictable.

         

        2020 Goal: Short Distance PRs so people won't make fun of me. 

        JMac11


        Taper Czar

          Totally agree with Andres - clouds alone "lower" the temperature by about 10 degrees feel-wise. 45 and sunny is same as 55 and cloudy, we'll be fine. I'm just more annoyed with the wind, especially because Monday-Wednesday look more like the perfect weather I was expecting. Let's just hope it stays as a crosswind and not turn into a headwind. I'm a little scarred from my half marathon when I had to run the entire second half into a 20 mph wind and rain. I wouldn't necessarily call this "crushable" weather though, more like B+ weather. Still, after the disaster was that Boston, I'm ready to go. LET'S DO THIS.

           

          DW - regarding LT, that's just feedback I got last time I put this on the board from the over 40 crowd. Anyway, I agree with your analysis, as usual. And thanks for the tips on checking. I feel like I do want one beer at the finish, so maybe I'll check the bag.

           

          Also, you signed up for a spring marathon? Did you declare that in this forum yet? Maybe I missed it.

           

          JT - No excuses though this year! Haven't lowered expectations at all. I'm ready to rock and roll. If it was sandbag, I'd say my A goal is 2:39, but it's not: the real A goal is sub 2:37. B goal of 2:3X, C goal of PR. If I don't PR, it means I had a major stomach malfunction on the course, which are the only real demons I ever get.

           

          also planks are tough. I also find the "sitting against the wall" to be brutal if you do it at 90 degrees or more. My quads are crap.

           

          Andres - Personally, I think just doing continually lengthening repeats is too repetitive (no pun intended). I'm a big believer in hitting LT paces in various ways, and those 4 workouts I gave you do that. I think they're much better suited for marathon running than half marathoners: you teach your legs how to run LT pace on very tired legs. I would be perfectly okay with what you suggested for a half marathoner, but you can get really creative when training for a marathon.

           

          I'd also say some of those workouts sounds "easy", like the first workout, but it's REALLY difficult to speed up to 2T when you've just run 6 straight at easy pace. I think the main reason for that is you have zero rest before you have to crank it up. Put another way, let's imagine you ran your 3x2 mile workout. After each 2 mile repeat, you would probably take about 2:15-2:30 rest. So when you start up the next intervals, your legs are much fresher for at least the first mile of LT than when they've been running 6 miles straight with no rest. It took me a while to realize this, but when I did, I realized the brilliance behind those TLT workouts and why something that only has 4 miles of LT can be just as hard or harder than a 3x2 mile workout.

          5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

           

          Next Race: Mardi Gras Run to the Great South Bay Brewery 7.1 Miler (2/9/20)

          darkwave


          Mother of Cats

             

            DW - 

            Also, you signed up for a spring marathon? Did you declare that in this forum yet? Maybe I missed it.

             

             

            Yup.  I figured I'd mention it here after the CIM focus had passed.

             

            One City Marathon in Newport News, VA on March 1.  Small race, but very fast point-to-point pancake flat course, and highly recommended by everyone who has run it.  I really want to run a fast marathon, and soon, since I'm bitter about Indy.  Realistically, late February/early March is the earliest I can run a solid marathon, and so this fits the timing perfectly.   The Houston half also fits in really well as part of the cycle.  Additional benefits:

            1) I have several teammates training for the Olympic Trials or Tokyo, and One City is the same weekend as those, so my coach gets to have everyone on a similar time frame;

            2) One City is 7 weeks from Boston.  So, if I recover well after One City, then I could still run Boston as a half-ass race (I'd race it, but with the knowledge that I'd be compromised).  Or...I could run the BAA 5K like I did last year if I don't recover well.

             

            [and in response to the likely comment of "you should have gone for London 2020"...work is going to be complex and challenging through the fall of 2020 so I really need to limit my racing travel to stuff reasonably close - no races on the west coast or overseas for the next 9-10 months - just too much of a time commitment.]

             

             

              

            I'd also say some of those workouts sounds "easy", like the first workout, but it's REALLY difficult to speed up to 2T when you've just run 6 straight at easy pace. I think the main reason for that is you have zero rest before you have to crank it up. Put another way, let's imagine you ran your 3x2 mile workout. After each 2 mile repeat, you would probably take about 2:15-2:30 rest. So when you start up the next intervals, your legs are much fresher for at least the first mile of LT than when they've been running 6 miles straight with no rest.

             

            So here's what's weird for me.  I'm assuming that by "rest" you mean standing/walking/very slow jog rest?

             

            If so, I guess this is an example of how we are all different.  I would find tempo effort after 6 miles of easy running easier than standing or walking for a few minutes and then going right into it.  (related: I find it much easier to run MP when it's preceded by moderate effort than if I jump straight into it from easy pace).  The bigger the shift in gears, the more it takes out of me.  And standing/walking rest just wrecks me.

             

            Different physiologies, I guess.

             

            Andres - I think to your point about recovery - we all recover differently.  Just covering miles (sheer endurance) is pretty easy for me - 10 miles doesn't feel much different from 14.  It's intensity that takes it out of me, and that it takes me a while to recharge from.

             

            So that may be why I can hop back into mileage fairly quickly, but have to ease into workouts, and it takes me a while to race at the same level.  While others may have to work more to rebuild mileage, but can hop into a 5K or similar pretty quickly after a marathon and perform quite well.

            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

             

            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

              Re: wind at CIM.  If it is a headwind, you'll have plenty of people to work with.  And, CIM has a very collaborative feel to it, so people will be looking for packs to share the burden.

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              Brewing Runner


              3:56 marathoner at heart

                jmac you should have enough people to work with in the 2:40 group you won't have to worry about the weather. When you're in your hotel this weekend don't stress over the weather. It's not race day until sunday. You won't melt snowflake. 

                 

                dwave so I guess you'll be starting the thread next year. Didn't you get a sweet award for the BAA 5K last year? Sounds like you'll have time to do CIM 2020, if you wanted to come back.

                 

                I tried a mile at marathon pace today. It felt harder than I'd expect after all those 10 mile runs. Seriously felt like I had to put effort into it and the "hill" I encountered was just about where the right hand turn at CIM will be (approx. 0.75 mi) so I feel the taper legs. They've felt so fresh I was honestly expecting the whole mile to feel like a walk in the park. Upside is I built some mental strength to get up that hill. Downside....ummm I ran my easy run too fast?

                1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                Half: 1:29* (2019 CIM first half)

                Marathon 2:59* (2019 CIM)

                Annual Miles 2,121 miles

                *CIM is a NET downhill course and the weather is unpredictable.

                 

                2020 Goal: Short Distance PRs so people won't make fun of me. 

                  I'm just more annoyed with the wind, especially because Monday-Wednesday look more like the perfect weather I was expecting. Let's just hope it stays as a crosswind and not turn into a headwind. I'm a little scarred from my half marathon when I had to run the entire second half into a 20 mph wind and rain. I wouldn't necessarily call this "crushable" weather though, more like B+ weather. Still, after the disaster was that Boston, I'm ready to go. LET'S DO THIS.

                   

                   

                  My god, JMac - the predicted wind is 7 mph (basically non-existent)  and it's a cross-wind (SSE) - which means it's not a problem anyway. Unless the Saturday's predicted 15-20 mph wind somehow moves to Sunday (which is always possible with weather "prediction" but that kind of wind usually comes with rain), you absolutely, totally, completely should not even mention wind as an "annoying" thing. Plus, you have Vaporfly which is invented to compensate wind factor Smile.

                   

                  Btw, on a historical note - the only year wind was a factor at CIM - year 2012 with the torrential weather and extremely heavy rain (especially at the first half of the race).

                   

                  WeatherUnderground.com says

                   

                  it will be 53oF with showers and 7 mph SSE wind at 7am on Dec 8th in Folsom.

                  it will be 55oF with showers and 9 mph S wind at 10 am in Sacramento

                   

                  If the wind is noticeable, to some degree it can only be a factor from mile 7 till 11.

                  jayluf


                    Pulling the plug on CIM - foot injury has regressed since workout yesterday making it increasingly risky to try and race on it this weekend. Really bummed, frustrated etc but it's the smart call. Lots to look forward to next year need to be healthy for. Going to take downtime to heal and rest up.

                     

                    GOOD LUCK to everyone in Sacramento this weekend! Go crush it.

                    Brewing Runner


                    3:56 marathoner at heart

                      jayluf bummer.

                       

                      cal he is running in the zoom fly. Just like me. Although, we do have carbon fiber plates we don't have that fancy cushy foam.

                       

                      Weather for CIM gets worse each time I check it. I'm more worried about holding pace and can't stop thinking of "should I speed up at 20, 23, or just sprint the finish? Is it going to be a really big pack the whole way and should I plan on going around a lot of people at the end? When should I take gels? Where are the water stops? " so hopefully I get this figured out. I would anticipate much of the wind to be blocked by buildings in Sacramento for the final 5 or so miles. SSE wind...cross wind to head wind. Suck it up buttercup. This is why we train outside instead of on treadmills.

                      1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                      5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                      10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                      Half: 1:29* (2019 CIM first half)

                      Marathon 2:59* (2019 CIM)

                      Annual Miles 2,121 miles

                      *CIM is a NET downhill course and the weather is unpredictable.

                       

                      2020 Goal: Short Distance PRs so people won't make fun of me. 

                      JMac11


                      Taper Czar

                        Jay - surprising news. What exactly is the issue? Are you sure it's bad enough to pull the plug on CIM? I had two different foot injuries in two different marathons: one was a tendon issue that was fine once I was a mile in, and the other was metatarsalgia that hurt like HELL the week of taper, but with the help of Andres and some foot pads, I was completely fine during the race. just making sure this is actually serious enough to pull the plug

                         

                        Cal - I said it earlier, but I just think I set the bar so high for the weather for this race given the hype around it, that's all. I basically expected mid 40s, no wind. I'm surprised at how much rain has been in the forecast in the past few days, and in fact for the entire 3 days I'm in Cali. I thought the rainy season doesn't start in Cali until January? Was I wrong, or is this an abnormal year?

                         

                        Brew - ha Brew no I'm running in the VF! I said I train in the ZF, and that YOU shouldn't worry you're losing out by running the race in the ZF because it feels so similar to the VF. Anyway, you saw my earlier post, everyone bombs their week of workout. It's just the nature of the taper beast. And I never stress about the actual race, it's the last thing on my mind, so the weather is the only thing to focus on. I show up the morning of with a "let's get this thing over with" mentality which I think generally leads to my success in racing. I have absolutely zero nerves, stress, or anxiety once it's race morning. It also leads to me sleeping pretty well the night before 

                         

                        DW: That's really interesting regarding rest. When I do a workout like 6E + 4x2T, I find the second interval to be the easiest, not the first. The first one is coming in with zero rest, whereas the second interval I've been walking for 2:20. I could see why some folks feel better about it. I also think that there's something about my body needs to ramp up into T pace, so that first T mile is always my slowest. When I start my second interval, I've already run 2 miles at T pace and I'm ready to go.

                         

                        Also, you have teammates who are actually going to be running in the Olympics???

                        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                        Next Race: Mardi Gras Run to the Great South Bay Brewery 7.1 Miler (2/9/20)

                        Brewing Runner


                        3:56 marathoner at heart

                          jmac they "hype" about the weather might be real. What's the weather like for NYC each year? Chicago? Vegas? Boston? You'll have a good time either way. Hope you have a good flight. Stop by the jelly bean factory. I hear those are vegan compliant and can make it through TSA.

                           

                          I'm struggling with the idea of trusting someone else for pacing. Even as someone who has paced a race more than once. Just train all summer long and show up to let someone else control the speed. I should embrace this a LOT more and think of it as a woobie/security blanket. I know the pace is fine. Training never let me down. Just the concept of someone else having control is...odd. It's like having an actual teammate or one of you there.

                          1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                          5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                          10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                          Half: 1:29* (2019 CIM first half)

                          Marathon 2:59* (2019 CIM)

                          Annual Miles 2,121 miles

                          *CIM is a NET downhill course and the weather is unpredictable.

                           

                          2020 Goal: Short Distance PRs so people won't make fun of me. 

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                             

                             

                            DW: That's really interesting regarding rest. When I do a workout like 6E + 4x2T, I find the second interval to be the easiest, not the first. The first one is coming in with zero rest, whereas the second interval I've been walking for 2:20. I could see why some folks feel better about it. I also think that there's something about my body needs to ramp up into T pace, so that first T mile is always my slowest. When I start my second interval, I've already run 2 miles at T pace and I'm ready to go.

                             

                            Also, you have teammates who are actually going to be running in the Olympics???

                             

                            Jmac - I've underlined what I think is the answer.  Smile  It harks back, believe it or not, to an earlier conversation on how slowly to start races and ramping up into pace.  For the vast majority of us, it is physiologically easiest to build into pace, with the first rep a bit slower and the last a bit faster.  Where we can differ is in how steep that ramp is.  For some folks that ramp is quite shallow; for others it can be steep.

                             

                            As for the second point - Olympic trials, not Olympics (though I did have a friend/former teammate compete in London 2012 in the women's marathon (not for the US)).  Y'know.  Atlanta 2020 - Saturday Feb 29, 2020.  Which is the day before Sunday, March 1 (Tokyo Marathon and One City Marathon).

                             

                            [I can see how it would be confusing, since I referred both to the Olympic trials and to Tokyo, so that one might think I was referencing the Tokyo Olympics]

                             

                            Brewing - you don't have to rely on pace groups for your pacing.  Just use them as windblocks that you can depend on moving at a certain pace.  Think of them as moving mile markers.

                             

                            Jayluf - I'm really sorry. That's rough news.  It always hurts to be this close and then have it pulled out from under you.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            JMac11


                            Taper Czar

                              Ah DW, Tokyo marathon! Makes sense, sorry about that.

                               

                              Brew - I agree with DW. I don't say "I'm going to run with this group the whole way." I find a group of runners that are around my pace and I stick with them, but I'm quick to abandon them if I feel like I need to speed up. Sometimes they're good for a marathon because they force you stay controlled for the first half. However, I've probably never stayed with a group for more than a couple of miles. I like running the pace I feel like, and even if that's 3 seconds per mile faster than the group I'm with, I will abandon them.

                               

                              The hardest part with groups is if there is a headwind. You have to decide whether it's better to be a bit slower than you want, but saving energy with the wind blocking, or enter into no man's land. If the group is large enough (both in size and height), I'll stick with them. But if it's one person I'm drafting off, I will just ditch them and enter no man's land.

                              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                               

                              Next Race: Mardi Gras Run to the Great South Bay Brewery 7.1 Miler (2/9/20)

                              Brewing Runner


                              3:56 marathoner at heart

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Brewing - you don't have to rely on pace groups for your pacing.  Just use them as windblocks that you can depend on moving at a certain pace.  Think of them as moving mile markers.

                                 

                                So like the pace bunny I'd used on my Garmin 410 previously that told me when I was ahead of schedule? Last two years I've run without them and kind of found a group to run with. Marathon running is so stressful.

                                 

                                So not focused on work. Also waiting for the boss to get back to me about a bunch of things so I have free time. I'd rather be busy cuz this free time gives me time to think.

                                 

                                jmac no man's land. No faster than 6:45/mi. I might have to drop them if I'm feeling good and 6:50 just feels like the pace to run.

                                1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                                5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                                10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                                Half: 1:29* (2019 CIM first half)

                                Marathon 2:59* (2019 CIM)

                                Annual Miles 2,121 miles

                                *CIM is a NET downhill course and the weather is unpredictable.

                                 

                                2020 Goal: Short Distance PRs so people won't make fun of me.