2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 292 times)


Laura

    Lela - way to bounce back from the half! I know from your full last year that you're a really strong marathoner, but it still seems like a big leap to get down to 2:45.  You might've already discussed this, so sorry if I missed it, but is this an ambitious goal that you'll hope to make feasible, but decide closer to the race if it makes sense, or is it all or nothing where 2:46 vs. a 3:10 blowup doesn't really matter?

     

     

    Oh it's a leap for sure. I'm not discounting that by any means. Goal for Boston is run smart and hard but see how much time I can knock off. My goal for Boston is run where my fitness is - right now based on the half that's 2:49ish. I'm not gonna go out at 2:45 and risk blowing a big PR. I wanna run well, not dumb. I have the goal but I'm not gonna be stubborn about when it happens if that makes sense. If it comes down to late fall and haven't done it....I may say F it and jump in CIM and just go all out and see what happens but there's NO point in doing that now when I have the rest of the year to work towards this goal.

     

    It's a leap, but then general thought process we have right now is...I ran that 2:57 last year with not crazy miles and coming off of almost a year off for pregnancy/postpartum. This year I have another solid year + of training and racing under my belt again and have the ability this season to run more miles and dedicate a bit more energy and time to training. Plus, that 1:21 earlier this month was run with very few specific workouts and with only 1 run longer than 11 miles. So now that actually getting more miles in and getting the distance back up - let's see what that means for Boston. My main goal this year is to be all in. It's more about the process and getting more miles, better training and committing to at least giving it everything this year. If that results in my being able to run the trials on 2/29/20 then awesome, if that results in me becoming a stronger better runner, and maybe "just" a 2:50 marathoner than so be it. Early in my running I let qualifying for Boston dictate if a race was successful or not for me and I won't do that again. Regardless of the time - someone else standard(Boston, OTQ, whatever) won't determine if I'm successful or happy with how I run.* steps off soapbox* LOL

    Pre-Baby PR's (all from 2015): 5k: 18:46  10k: 38:37 HM: 1:24:51 FM: 2:58:13

    Postpartum PR's: 5k: 18:18 (2018)  HM: 1:21:14 (2019) FM: 2:57:06 (2018-12 mo PP)

     

    2019 Lineup: Winter Warrior Half (1/5) {1:21:14}, NYC Half (3/17), Boston (4/15)

     

    {Strava}{IG}

     

    Andres1045


       

      Oh it's a leap for sure. I'm not discounting that by any means. Goal for Boston is run smart and hard but see how much time I can knock off. My goal for Boston is run where my fitness is - right now based on the half that's 2:49ish. I'm not gonna go out at 2:45 and risk blowing a big PR. I wanna run well, not dumb. I have the goal but I'm not gonna be stubborn about when it happens if that makes sense. If it comes down to late fall and haven't done it....I may say F it and jump in CIM and just go all out and see what happens but there's NO point in doing that now when I have the rest of the year to work towards this goal.

       

      It's a leap, but then general thought process we have right now is...I ran that 2:57 last year with not crazy miles and coming off of almost a year off for pregnancy/postpartum. This year I have another solid year + of training and racing under my belt again and have the ability this season to run more miles and dedicate a bit more energy and time to training. Plus, that 1:21 earlier this month was run with very few specific workouts and with only 1 run longer than 11 miles. So now that actually getting more miles in and getting the distance back up - let's see what that means for Boston. My main goal this year is to be all in. It's more about the process and getting more miles, better training and committing to at least giving it everything this year. If that results in my being able to run the trials on 2/29/20 then awesome, if that results in me becoming a stronger better runner, and maybe "just" a 2:50 marathoner than so be it. Early in my running I let qualifying for Boston dictate if a race was successful or not for me and I won't do that again. Regardless of the time - someone else standard(Boston, OTQ, whatever) won't determine if I'm successful or happy with how I run.* steps off soapbox* LOL

       

      AH! Yes, this makes much more sense, and now it's coming back. I somehow forgot the 2+ step process of see what Boston brings, then find another marathon in the Fall.  I thought you were going for 2:45 at Boston.  Yeah, I remember being quite surprised at the 2:57 last year based on the mileage and workouts you were doing. So seems like you have a lot of room to up your training and knock off some chunks of time.

       

      Weather: Gotcha. I'm excited to see what you do in the half. Hope the day isn't 70 and humid!

      Upcoming races:  I dunno.

      JMac11


        Lela - if I remember correctly, your race wasn't in ideal conditions either, which may mean you were in sub 2:55 shape. It's really cool to have someone going for an OTQ on here, and although you disappeared last year, your contribution so far this year has been A++ so it's great to have you around (aka you're forgiven!)

         

        Weather - I no longer have that workout since I've dropped to the 56-70 plan, but yeah that one is nuts. I still don't get his order sometimes. In his 71-85 plan, he has that ridiculous 2x4T to start, but then progresses throughout the plan to 4x2. Isn't that backwards? Maybe that contributed to my injury, but I just don't get the rationale of him starting with these crazy amount of T miles and then backing off as the plan goes on. Probably the most frustrating thing about the 2Q plans in general.

        5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

         

        Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

        steve_


        powered by plants

          Nice weeks, everyone.

           

          JT, I can't run anywhere near as fast on my TM as I can outside.  I could do 4 x 2mi at 6:15 outside, but no way on the TM.  I'd be shocked if I could hit 6:30 on the TM.  Nowadays, I just us HR as a guide on TM for workouts when I have to do them.  Otherwise, I only run easy on it.

           

          Jmac, NYCRUNS doesn't do anything out here.  There is a local group rockapulcoruns.com that puts on races.  They're expensive and not certified though.  I did them a bunch when I first moved out here, but not anymore.

           

          weather, I'm not even looking at your workouts anymore.

           

          I had a pretty decent week.  Finally now feeling back almost 100%.

           

          M- 6 easy

          T- 8+ jog

          W- 11+ w/ 15x 1min @HMP/1 min MP+:10, 5 min jog, 15x 30sec @HMP/30sec MP+:10

          T- 10+ jog

          F- 11+ jog

          S- 15 (8+ easy, 4x1mi @ HMP with 70sec jog recovery, steady home)

          S- 7 easy

           

          69 for the week.  Half Marathon this Sunday in the rain/snow.

           

          I'm considering running 400 miles in February...who's with me?

          5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

          *downhill AF

          weatherboy80


            Steve:  Lol and a nice looking week for you!  Good luck on the HM this weekend.  Looks like quite the storm in the making for the central and eastern US Sat/Sun.

             

            Lela:  Interested to see how your times progress.  Lots of potential for some very fast times!

             

            JMac:  Agree that 2X4@T seems a bit nuts would take a lot of focus to complete it.  I do seem to remember a pace table (see in link below) from his 2nd edition that knocked a few seconds per mile off your threshold pace for anything longer than 20 minutes.  For some reason he removed it from the current 3rd edition?

             

            Not sure I fully understand the structure of workouts throughout a cycle either unless he tries to get a big fitness leap early in the cycle and then as the race approaches you really work on making marathon pace more comfortable?  Although I think he points out to adjust your paces early on to your current fitness and then progress them to whereever your pace pace might be late in the cycle?   Admittedly I have moved a few workouts up a week or two, but 1) I was taking advantage of some good weather and 2)  expecting to taper back a bit and race at HM mid cycle.

             

            https://minneapolisrunning.com/benefits-of-threshold-workouts/

            5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

            JMac11


              Weather - Even with slightly slowing down for 4T (which is really only worth 5 seconds), and for using current fitness (which you should always be doing), I don't get how doing 2x4T makes sense before you do 4x2T. Maybe it is sharpening as you're saying, and he's converting your long T work into even longer MP work while dialing down the T. I just think you either need to modify those workouts, or you need to be going into the 71-85 MPW plan having done a big base of 85+, which you certainly have been doing. Otherwise, I think the approach Swim mentioned is right: pick a plan that has lower mileage than you are actually running.

              5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

               

              Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                 

                 

                I'm considering running 400 miles in February...who's with me?

                 

                Oof, not me.

                 

                Lela - we got about 10 inches of snow here.  Contrary to our reputation, the DC area doesn't do badly with pure snow unless we get multiple feet of it.  What does give us trouble is that we're just warm enough that when we do get snow, it often melts each day and then refreezes into black ice overnight.    Makes it challenging to run outside, because every route is a mix of bare pavement, slush, frozen rocky slush, and black ice.  Fortunately, we  have the Whitehurst.

                 

                Daniels workouts have never made sense to me.  Actually, a lot of his book seems contradictory - the theme of the text is "train, don't strain" and "there is no benefit to training harder than you need to in order to accomplish something."  And then you have the crazy easy run paces and the workout schedules that are ambitious and counter-intuitive.  I've always wondered how much of the book was written by someone else.

                 

                ***

                 

                Did "800s" this morning under the Whitehurst. Just running back and forth between a pole on one end and a manhole on the other - it's roughly 800m one way)  Rough morning - it took longer to deice my car than I planned, which meant I got down there late and only had time to jog two miles before the workout (I need a minimum of 3 plus drills/strides #oldandcreaky) So the first few reps felt awful, though things improved after that.  Ran most of them between 3:00 and 3:10 - exact times don't really matter, since I wasn't taking the same route each time and didn't stop at the exact same spot each time.

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                steve_


                powered by plants

                   Daniels workouts have never made sense to me.  Actually, a lot of his book seems contradictory - the theme of the text is "train, don't strain" and "there is no benefit to training harder than you need to in order to accomplish something."  And then you have the crazy easy run paces and the workout schedules that are ambitious and counter-intuitive.  I've always wondered how much of the book was written by someone else.

                  I think it goes back to what a lot of us have always said, which is that those plans are written for a top-level runner (2:30ish marathoner) who has been running consistently through HS and college.  A lot of 3 hour guys pick up the book and think "well, I place in the top 1-2% of all my races, I can handle this" and then run themselves into the ground.  8 miles of T pace?  In one day?  Too much for folks like us, no matter how you break it down.

                  5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                  *downhill AF

                     

                    Daniels workouts have never made sense to me.  Actually, a lot of his book seems contradictory - the theme of the text is "train, don't strain" and "there is no benefit to training harder than you need to in order to accomplish something."  And then you have the crazy easy run paces and the workout schedules that are ambitious and counter-intuitive.  I've always wondered how much of the book was written by someone else.

                     

                    I agree. There used to be this video series called Thirsty Thursday with Jack Daniels and it was just him talking about training. When he just talks off the cuff he sounds a lot more reasonable and less rigid about exact paces and exact mileage. I tend to think he came up with paces just based on what he observed his D3 college cross country athletes doing (for example easy run paces) and they were never intended to be so rigidly applied.

                     

                    I have long believed that people take all of the training book authors way more literally than they ever intended. I see the way people talk about Pfitz workouts and having had some interaction with his co-author as well as athletes who were coached by him directly, I kinda think he never intended for people to follow the training plans from Advanced Marathoning literally day by day, exact mile by exact mile. I know when he wrote Road Racing for Serious Runner he resisted putting day-by-day schedules in at all and only after pressure from his editors--because nobody would buy a training book that didn't include schedules--did he relent for future editions.

                     

                    But people find comfort in following a plan as if the author is their coach and has prescribed the days workout specifically for them and their exact life circumstances. I get that to an extent. I've done this myself--taking the Pfitz 18/70 plan and laying it out in a google sheet working backwards from race day. When you're in the throws of marathon training just doing what's on the calendar is mentally a lot easier than trying to figure out what's best that day.

                    Runners run.


                    Laura

                       

                      I have long believed that people take all of the training book authors way more literally than they ever intended. I see the way people talk about Pfitz workouts and having had some interaction with his co-author as well as athletes who were coached by him directly, I kinda think he never intended for people to follow the training plans from Advanced Marathoning literally day by day, exact mile by exact mile. I know when he wrote Road Racing for Serious Runner he resisted putting day-by-day schedules in at all and only after pressure from his editors--because nobody would buy a training book that didn't include schedules--did he relent for future editions.

                       

                      But people find comfort in following a plan as if the author is their coach and has prescribed the days workout specifically for them and their exact life circumstances. I get that to an extent. I've done this myself--taking the Pfitz 18/70 plan and laying it out in a google sheet working backwards from race day. When you're in the throws of marathon training just doing what's on the calendar is mentally a lot easier than trying to figure out what's best that day.

                       

                      Definitely agree on this - regardless of who wrote the book or the plan, it seems to be the case that people take it as written in stone. I've certainly been more guilty of this in my earlier distance running years, because like you said I used it like a coach and just did what I was supposed to that day on the calendar. After time/experience people tend to gain the knowledge to adjust in a way that keeps the integrity of the week, but also incorporates workouts that are a better fit for you vs. just doing what one book says.

                      Pre-Baby PR's (all from 2015): 5k: 18:46  10k: 38:37 HM: 1:24:51 FM: 2:58:13

                      Postpartum PR's: 5k: 18:18 (2018)  HM: 1:21:14 (2019) FM: 2:57:06 (2018-12 mo PP)

                       

                      2019 Lineup: Winter Warrior Half (1/5) {1:21:14}, NYC Half (3/17), Boston (4/15)

                       

                      {Strava}{IG}

                       

                      weatherboy80


                        All very valid points.  I'm sure each coach regardless of what his or her book would say these are meant to be general guidelines and to scale the workouts and/or mileage to what your body can handle.  Currently, I enjoy the structure and discipline that some of the Daniels workouts give me, but that may change after a few more cycles or races.  The 2Q plans often makes those workout days very challenging, but at the same time gives me the other 5 days to do whatever I want to get in my desired volume.  I do think those workouts, especially those insane tempo workouts, were likely geared to those much more elite than myself (say a tempo pace around 5 flat).  I also think that those might be better served to be time and effort based instead of a strick mileage (e.g. instead of 2 X 4T; how about 2 X 20 minutes at a comfortably hard pace) instead of whatever your T pace is by the book.  Having said that, I have been able to improve quite a bit in the last 2 years following this kind of structure, but I attribute more of that to "some" kind of steady discipline of easy and hard (workout days) on top of consistent volume.  I'm sure I could have gotten pretty close following any other plan out there.  Just my two cents Smile

                        5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)


                        Laura

                          All very valid points.  I'm sure each coach regardless of what his or her book would say these are meant to be general guidelines and to scale the workouts and/or mileage to what your body can handle.  Currently, I enjoy the structure and discipline that some of the Daniels workouts give me, but that may change after a few more cycles or races.  The 2Q plans often makes those workout days very challenging, but at the same time gives me the other 5 days to do whatever I want to get in my desired volume.  I do think those workouts, especially those insane tempo workouts, were likely geared to those much more elite than myself (say a tempo pace around 5 flat).  I also think that those might be better served to be time and effort based instead of a strick mileage (e.g. instead of 2 X 4T; how about 2 X 20 minutes at a comfortably hard pace) instead of whatever your T pace is by the book.  Having said that, I have been able to improve quite a bit in the last 2 years following this kind of structure, but I attribute more of that to "some" kind of steady discipline of easy and hard (workout days) on top of consistent volume.  I'm sure I could have gotten pretty close following any other plan out there.  Just my two cents Smile

                           

                           Weather - really the nail on the head there with the fact that consistency, discipline, easy days easy and hard workouts hard - regardless of the plan this is the most important part...clearly it's working though! I do like the idea of doing time based vs. distance based when scaling some of the workouts, I do this a lot with athletes I coach. Keeps the concept of the workout but more appropriately scales to their level.ability.

                           

                          In general I do also think it's good to change things up every few cycles. Body needs to have different exposure or eventually plateau. I met a guy a few years ago that had run 100+ marathons and used the same exact plan (Pfitz) for all of them. First, maybe it's just me but that would bore me. Second, I'd question how effective those workouts would be after all that time...Instead of working on any potential weaknesses you're just reiterating the strengths that you have built over the years doing the same thing over and over.

                          Pre-Baby PR's (all from 2015): 5k: 18:46  10k: 38:37 HM: 1:24:51 FM: 2:58:13

                          Postpartum PR's: 5k: 18:18 (2018)  HM: 1:21:14 (2019) FM: 2:57:06 (2018-12 mo PP)

                           

                          2019 Lineup: Winter Warrior Half (1/5) {1:21:14}, NYC Half (3/17), Boston (4/15)

                           

                          {Strava}{IG}

                           

                          steve_


                          powered by plants

                             I met a guy a few years ago that had run 100+ marathons and used the same exact plan (Pfitz) for all of them.

                            Gonna nit-pick here, but mathematically that's not really possible unless he's running a bunch of them off of one training cycle.

                            5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                            *downhill AF

                            Andres1045


                               

                              I know when he wrote Road Racing for Serious Runner he resisted putting day-by-day schedules in at all and only after pressure from his editors--because nobody would buy a training book that didn't include schedules--did he relent for future editions.

                               

                              This is interesting to hear and makes total sense to me. I never read Daniel's books, and only kind of skimmed Pfitz's Advanced Marathoning, but I just assumed that they took the starting point of either: a. "This is what I did when I ran 2:10 marathons" or b. "This is what I do to get a 2:20 marathoner to be able to run a 2:12".  But if you made it that obvious that that was the starting point of the book, not many people would buy it. So editors get them to water the stuff down a bit. Pfitz does a little bit better of a job watering it down, while JD doesn't.  His workouts seem outrageous for a 3hr marathoner, and it sounds like he probably never intended for a 3hr runner to try them.

                              Upcoming races:  I dunno.


                              Laura

                                Gonna nit-pick here, but mathematically that's not really possible unless he's running a bunch of them off of one training cycle.

                                 

                                Oh he for sure did multiple in one cycle. But none the less, the guy used that book as a bible. The books been out almost 20 years (2001 if I remember correctly) and he isn't the only person I know who basically has only ever used that plan. I'm a creature of habit with some things, but not sure I could have THAT kind of routine with training for so long without getting bored.

                                Pre-Baby PR's (all from 2015): 5k: 18:46  10k: 38:37 HM: 1:24:51 FM: 2:58:13

                                Postpartum PR's: 5k: 18:18 (2018)  HM: 1:21:14 (2019) FM: 2:57:06 (2018-12 mo PP)

                                 

                                2019 Lineup: Winter Warrior Half (1/5) {1:21:14}, NYC Half (3/17), Boston (4/15)

                                 

                                {Strava}{IG}