2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 287 times)

JMac11


    Great discussion everyone, this is really where these boards shine!

     

    I think Weather is starting to approach a level where Daniels makes sense, e.g. he has a great shot of sub 2:40 and outside chance at sub 2:35. I also agree with the sentiment that he meant for his runners that were coming off monster cycles, not somebody ramping up during the cycle.

     

    I remember that Pfitz line in his book, i.e. he really didn't want a day by day schedule. I always liked Daniels (among other reasons) specifically because he says do whatever you want the other 5 days as Weather alluded to, but I imagine Pfitz would say the same thing if he wasn't forced to put schedules.

     

    My problem is that I have no idea how to structure an 18 week cycle without following the books. The obvious approach to me would be to start with easier MP work (maybe 2x5 or 2x6 at MP), LT work (2x2 or even just 20 minutes continuously), and intervals (5x1K) and build each one of them up as you get closer. However, that could be too intense, which is why Daniels actually makes the T work easier as he gets the M pace harder. I also know there are schools of thought out there regarding doing all of your interval work at the start of the block and getting away from it as you get closer to race day.

     

    Overall - I agree that you shouldn't follow a plan as written, but if not, what else? I love the Daniels plans and want to stick with them, but I feel like I just don't have enough knowledge to know how to tweak them besides seeing some ridiculous workout and saying "that's impossible". That's probably why people get coaches.

    5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

     

    Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

    JTReeves


      Great discussion indeed! Mikeymike, thanks for the perspective. Lela, good point about adjusting things to be time-based instead of distance; that is especially important with the more extreme workouts from JD or Pfitz (the 7 mile tempo comes to mind...).

       

      JMac: Glad your foot is on the mend. You'll be knocking out those crazy Daniels workouts like Weatherboy before long. You asked about me doing any races; I do have a couple in mind, one if Feb (local 7.6 miler) and a 10k in late March, 3 weeks before my marathon. Need to find a good half to fit in at some point during this cycle though. All the nearby ones are hilly AF so I need to look further out.

       

      Steve: Good point about the treadmill; HR is probably the best guide. I wonder what the variability is in how treadmills are calibrated. As far as your 400 mile goal for February, think the only folks here who could (or at least who have in the past) put up 100+ mpw are Swim and Calbears; maybe you can recruit them.  Mikkey also has done it but he is in a lower mileage mode now.

       

      Speaking of treadmills, where is Kram??

       

      Lela: That's a big week coming off your half PR!  I find I need pretty much what JD recommends for recovery: 1 day per 3km of race distance, so a week for a half. Then again I am at the extreme end as far as recovery requirements. Just be sure you get your rest, you have big things ahead this year and we don't want you to burn out!

      5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

      2019 races: Athens Ohio Marathon (April 14); Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

         

        In general I do also think it's good to change things up every few cycles. Body needs to have different exposure or eventually plateau. I met a guy a few years ago that had run 100+ marathons and used the same exact plan (Pfitz) for all of them. First, maybe it's just me but that would bore me. Second, I'd question how effective those workouts would be after all that time...Instead of working on any potential weaknesses you're just reiterating the strengths that you have built over the years doing the same thing over and over.

         

        As you note, mental stagnation is a big risk of this approach - I think maybe even more than the physical.  If you have a very well balanced training program, you should be able to repeat it (with different training paces based on your fitness) and continue to progress.  But mentally one can only do that for 5-6 years, from what I've observed.

         

         

         

         

         

        I have long believed that people take all of the training book authors way more literally than they ever intended. I see the way people talk about Pfitz workouts and having had some interaction with his co-author as well as athletes who were coached by him directly, I kinda think he never intended for people to follow the training plans from Advanced Marathoning literally day by day, exact mile by exact mile. I know when he wrote Road Racing for Serious Runner he resisted putting day-by-day schedules in at all and only after pressure from his editors--because nobody would buy a training book that didn't include schedules--did he relent for future editions.

         

        But people find comfort in following a plan as if the author is their coach and has prescribed the days workout specifically for them and their exact life circumstances. I get that to an extent. I've done this myself--taking the Pfitz 18/70 plan and laying it out in a google sheet working backwards from race day. When you're in the throws of marathon training just doing what's on the calendar is mentally a lot easier than trying to figure out what's best that day.

         

        Heh - I've experienced this and seen it many times with my own coach.  He'd issue a training schedule.  Then the runner shows up for that day's workout, and he changes the workout for whatever reason (sometimes weather, sometimes just instinct).  And the runner gets in a big argument with the author of the training schedule about the fact that they are deviating from the schedule.

         

        (been there, done that.  In my defense, it is a bit disconcerting to show up for a scheduled 20 just to be told that you're doing 16 instead...)

         

         

        . I know when he wrote Road Racing for Serious Runner he resisted putting day-by-day schedules in at all and only after pressure from his editors--because nobody would buy a training book that didn't include schedules--did he relent for future editions.

         

        Yup - Similar with Hudson, who wrote a pretty good training book that focused on the importance of modifying training each day based on how you felt and how things were progressing - essentially "don't lock yourself to a schedule."  Only to be forced to include schedules.

         

        However, it's also important to remember that most of us are balancing this training with other commitments, and we need schedules for that reason.  If I've got a really big workout on a weekday morning, I really need to know that a few weeks in advance, to make sure I'm not on tap to give that major presentation the same morning I need to do that major workout.

         

         

         

        I think it goes back to what a lot of us have always said, which is that those plans are written for a top-level runner (2:30ish marathoner) who has been running consistently through HS and college.  A lot of 3 hour guys pick up the book and think "well, I place in the top 1-2% of all my races, I can handle this" and then run themselves into the ground.  8 miles of T pace?  In one day?  Too much for folks like us, no matter how you break it down.

         

        I have quite a few teammates who fit that description. Next chance I get, I'll ask them if the Daniels plans look to them the same way they look to us.

         

        ***

         

        Did 2.5 very easy (10:10 pace), yoga, and then 8 very easy (8:48 pace).  One of these runs was in the dark on negligently "shoveled" sidewalks, the other on a paved bike trail that was mostly clear of ice (a few bad patches).  Any guesses as to which run was which?

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        Swim5599


          Great discussion everyone, this is really where these boards shine!

           

          I think Weather is starting to approach a level where Daniels makes sense, e.g. he has a great shot of sub 2:40 and outside chance at sub 2:35. I also agree with the sentiment that he meant for his runners that were coming off monster cycles, not somebody ramping up during the cycle.

           

          I remember that Pfitz line in his book, i.e. he really didn't want a day by day schedule. I always liked Daniels (among other reasons) specifically because he says do whatever you want the other 5 days as Weather alluded to, but I imagine Pfitz would say the same thing if he wasn't forced to put schedules.

           

          My problem is that I have no idea how to structure an 18 week cycle without following the books. The obvious approach to me would be to start with easier MP work (maybe 2x5 or 2x6 at MP), LT work (2x2 or even just 20 minutes continuously), and intervals (5x1K) and build each one of them up as you get closer. However, that could be too intense, which is why Daniels actually makes the T work easier as he gets the M pace harder. I also know there are schools of thought out there regarding doing all of your interval work at the start of the block and getting away from it as you get closer to race day.

           

          Overall - I agree that you shouldn't follow a plan as written, but if not, what else? I love the Daniels plans and want to stick with them, but I feel like I just don't have enough knowledge to know how to tweak them besides seeing some ridiculous workout and saying "that's impossible". That's probably why people get coaches.

          I also do not know how to structure a plan either. Which is I used the books also.  But the key to my recent success is really all coaching.  Running by power really allows me  to train at the right effort level and at my current fitness level.  No more guessing.  I could crush some Daniels T work back in the day, but it was basically wearing me out. Now I just head out and hit the targets and call it a day.

          HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

          Andres1045


            Sunday's forecast for Houston is looking even better than it did earlier in the week. It's warming a touch, to start at around 35 (which is good since having to be outside in temperatures in the 20s scares the crap out of people around here). The winds look to be significantly milder at around 10, and due north which only really impacts about 2 miles of the race. I'm pissed I'm not in better shape, but at least I'll be somewhat comfortable as I'm struggling from mile 3 on, instead of sweating buckets in humidity like 2017.

            Upcoming races:  I dunno.


            Laura

               

              My problem is that I have no idea how to structure an 18 week cycle without following the books. The obvious approach to me would be to start with easier MP work (maybe 2x5 or 2x6 at MP), LT work (2x2 or even just 20 minutes continuously), and intervals (5x1K) and build each one of them up as you get closer. However, that could be too intense, which is why Daniels actually makes the T work easier as he gets the M pace harder. I also know there are schools of thought out there regarding doing all of your interval work at the start of the block and getting away from it as you get closer to race day.

               

               

              I think it was a McMillan tweet years ago that has really stuck with me and burned the concept into my brain. I don't remember it verbatim but it was something like, early in the training cycle is when you push the paces and as you get closer to race day its about making race pace feel like second nature. I've generally done well/liked that idea. Really push the faster stuff, speed and power earlier on and then as you approach marathon - more MP specific work. At that point MP feels slower/easier to settle into because you'd been doing faster much workouts beforehand.

              Pre-Baby PR's (all from 2015): 5k: 18:46  10k: 38:37 HM: 1:24:51 FM: 2:58:13

              Postpartum PR's: 5k: 18:18 (2018)  HM: 1:21:14 (2019) FM: 2:57:06 (2018-12 mo PP)

               

              2019 Lineup: Winter Warrior Half (1/5) {1:21:14}, NYC Half (3/17), Boston (4/15)

               

              {Strava}{IG}

               

              JTReeves


                Sunday's forecast for Houston is looking even better than it did earlier in the week. It's warming a touch, to start at around 35 (which is good since having to be outside in temperatures in the 20s scares the crap out of people around here). The winds look to be significantly milder at around 10, and due north which only really impacts about 2 miles of the race. I'm pissed I'm not in better shape, but at least I'll be somewhat comfortable as I'm struggling from mile 3 on, instead of sweating buckets in humidity like 2017.

                 

                Andres, you always seem to run HMs well, even off of little training. It seems to be your optimal distance. No pressure but I think you'll put down a pretty good time this weekend.

                5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                2019 races: Athens Ohio Marathon (April 14); Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)


                Laura

                   

                  Andres, you always seem to run HMs well, even off of little training. It seems to be your optimal distance. No pressure but I think you'll put down a pretty good time this weekend.

                   

                  +1 to this. I really think you'll surprise yourself

                  Pre-Baby PR's (all from 2015): 5k: 18:46  10k: 38:37 HM: 1:24:51 FM: 2:58:13

                  Postpartum PR's: 5k: 18:18 (2018)  HM: 1:21:14 (2019) FM: 2:57:06 (2018-12 mo PP)

                   

                  2019 Lineup: Winter Warrior Half (1/5) {1:21:14}, NYC Half (3/17), Boston (4/15)

                   

                  {Strava}{IG}

                   

                  weatherboy80


                    Andres:  Awesome news on the good looking weather.  As you said at least that makes the pain a bit more tolerable Wink  I'm growing a bit excited at the prospects of keeping the eastern US temps below normal through much of next week.  If the models stay consistent I'm leaning towards a mid-cycle taper and then a HM race next weekend!

                    5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                    JMac11


                      Andres:  Awesome news on the good looking weather.  As you said at least that makes the pain a bit more tolerable Wink  I'm growing a bit excited at the prospects of keeping the eastern US temps below normal through much of next week.  If the models stay consistent I'm leaning towards a mid-cycle taper and then a HM race next weekend!

                       

                      Your hope is my dread, as the lows overnight are supposed to reach 5 degrees here on Sunday and Monday night.

                       

                      Lela - Helpful, thank you. I know a lot of plans are structured like that, focused on intervals early on and progressing to long MP work.

                       

                      Andres - Good luck! You're due for a great race and you're going to surprise yourself.

                      5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                       

                      Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

                      slingrunner


                        Andres- Good luck.  I too think you may surprise yourself.

                        Jmac- Also dreading these upcoming low temperatures.  I think my metatarsal pain is largely gone too, although I'm still often wearing my inserts still.

                         

                        Took my new vapormax 4% for a test drive today.  My normal running path is gravel, so I hit the track for 11 miles, including 3@ tempo, a one mile jog, and 3 more@ tempo.  My tempo is supposed to be around 6:25-6:30 by my calculations.  First 3 miles were at 6:22 and it felt only slightly harder than MP.  Next 3 miles came in at 6:16.  Felt very fresh at the end.  As a comparison, last week I did a workout with 4 miles@6:30, and I was destroyed.  These shoes seem legit.  I'm fairly confident I could have time trialed a 5K or 10K PR today had I attempted it despite relatively poor fitness at the moment.

                         

                        My only concerns are 1.  My feet hurt moderately during the run, a lot during the cool down, and I'm concerned about tomorrow.  2.  My right shoelace came undone, despite me tying it quite tight.  This happened during my last marathon.  It never happens in my regular trainers (ghost).

                         

                        Going to do 2 or 3 more runs in them, and then retire them until Boston.

                        5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

                           

                          When you're in the throws of marathon training just doing what's on the calendar is mentally a lot easier than trying to figure out what's best that day.

                           

                          Similarly, I find that having your running cloths pre-planned for the run is helpful.  "When you're in the throws, don't waste energy on the cloths" has always been my mantra.

                           

                           

                             

                            Similarly, I find that having your running cloths pre-planned for the run is helpful.  "When you're in the throws, don't waste energy on the cloths" has always been my mantra.

                             

                            I really appreciate you doing this on a Friday afternoon so I don't have to go into the weekend with it hanging over my head.

                            Runners run.

                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                               

                              My only concerns are 1.  My feet hurt moderately during the run, a lot during the cool down, and I'm concerned about tomorrow.  2.  My right shoelace came undone, despite me tying it quite tight.  This happened during my last marathon.  It never happens in my regular trainers (ghost).

                               

                              Some interesting reading: http://www.doctorsofrunning.com/2018/03/nike-vaporfly-4-review-does-it-live-up.html

                               

                              Scroll down to the italicized section "thoughts as a DPT".

                               

                              Essentially, the stiffness of the shoe prevents the foot from flexing at the forefoot - the "MTP."   And as the author writes:

                               

                              "This is anecdotal, but I have had several running patients of mine present to me with a variety of lower extremity issues after running in these shoes. Cessation of running in these cleared up a great deal of their problems, but a few were able to compensate with extensive work on their ankle mobility into dorsiflexion. Ankle dorsiflexion and MTP extension are both very important for forward progression during the propulsive and end stage stance phases of gait. Take away one (MTP extension) and you need to make sure you have enough of the other."

                               

                              Just food for thought.

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                              JMac11


                                This concern on the VF certainly hits home given my current PTT issues, so I'm taking a very cautious approach with even trying them for a test a run. I'm certainly doing a lot of ankle exercises though, so maybe that will help as DW pointed out.

                                 

                                Where the hell is Mikkey? 

                                 

                                JT - Add my NYC Half up there with Lela as well. Let's call my goal for now sub 1:20. We'll see if i can progress enough to get that down further.

                                5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Boston (4/15/19)