PR's run on non-certified courses--should they count? (Read 790 times)

That would be nice. I know of a 5k that's about a 1/2 k short. I ran the course at tempo the same day while the markers were still up in 19:45 just to see what I would have gotten.

Just a variation on this theme- i have a race on May 4th., big one with 9,000 runners last year, which is downhill all the way. Now I am sure it is the correct distance, but i only count my time on that course as my PB for THAT course, or explain the time since anyone who has run that race knows about the course. Some courses, naturally, are hillier than others, we often see courses advertised as "flat and fast", but I don't remember seeing any advertised as "short"! I am doing a half marathon on a hilly course the Sunday after next, will get a poorish time, but will compare in future years with other times I run on that particular course. So my answer is, I call it a PR (or PB in Canadian) if the course is accurate, or for a particular course, certified or not. It's hard to be absolute about this. Simon.

I count them unless I have legitimate reason to believe the course is off. MOST of the races I run are non certified, but most I believe to be "reasonably" accurate. I would not have many races if I demanded certification. Since nothing around here is truly flat, I would guess terrain is having a much larger effect on my PR's than distance. There are only 2 races that I dont "count" the PR's The first is Hood-to-Coast. The routes are notoriously inaccurate, and although they did go back and remeasure them last year, they rely heavily on GPS measurments in areas that get lousy reception and car odometers. Plus the course can change slightly as exchange points are not set in stone. However, since some of my best times have come from hood to coast (Hey the race is in late august when I am approaching peak training but havent been racing much) I do use them as a benchmark for training paces. The second was a 10K I did last year. It was a PR by a couple minutes, 3 months after having my son. It was also a hellaciously hilly course. My suspicions were based on the fact that it was a wide open course where garmin should have no problem and all of the mile markers were coming in 0.98-1.02 and then BAM one was 0.8. So the course measured 6.0 by garmin. I was shocked because while not certified, this was an ORRC event and they are usually very good, plus its a well established old race. I asked the race director. "6.2" . I gmaped it. 6.0. Since it is a route I run often being only a mile from my house, I drove it. 6.0. I biked it with my calibrated bike odometer (fresh calibration) 6.0. Do you see how badly I wanted to be able to take this PR? But I just couldnt. 0.2 is a lot. I ran the race again this year. It turns out the course WAS 6.2, but the volunteers near the end must have been getting tired or confused and forgot to point me down a 0.1 out and back segment. Hmmm. This year it was a legit enough in my book 6.2 ( and a PR...for 2 months) Garmin measurements alone to me are not reason to count or discount a race. I have had certified courses run both short and long on my garmin, I blame the garmin. As for terrain If I ever got the chance to run an all downhill race I would take it and say thank you. Tucson Marathon is a primarily down hill course (2200 foot elevation drop) and Boston accepts it as a qualifier. That's good enough for me

Hmmmm... the aversion to counting downhill courses as PR's surpises me. I'd have no issue with it. My 5K PR of 16:11 in high school was on a dead flat course...if i could somehow (highly unlikely) beat that today with a downhill course, then chalk it up!

I wouldn't call it an aversion but the fact is that times run on point-to-point downhill courses are not record eligible according to the USATF. I realize that it's not the same thing as whether or not to count them as a PR, but it's a factor in my decision...or I should say, indecision. It's something that I have mixed feelings about it. It is very possible for a net downhill course to be slower than a flat one, depending on the layout, how steep some of the hills are, etc. However, a course that is continuous, gradual downhill gives the runner a definite advantage over a flat one. In the end I don't completey believe my time unless I ran it on a track, certified loop or out and back. The timing is just perfect for me to bring this up since there is a good chance that I will be racing a point-to-point certified 4 miler this Sunday that has a net elevation loss. If I run a PR I will count it, but it gets an asterisk Still undecided, though, between it and a 5k that will be on a certified loop.

I consider times run on non-certified courses to be acceptable for PR purposes, unless there is reason to believe that the course is short. The distances of races that have been run for several years or longer on a well established course can usually be assumed to be valid, as can races conducted by experienced race directors or running clubs. One-off races, especially if conducted by a non-professional race director, are more questionable. I would be more reluctant to list a time from such a race without first checking with the race director concerning the measurement of the course....I have done that on occasion and had it turn out both ways. Concerning a downhill course, when a point-to-point PR is faster than my loop or out-and-back PR, I list it separately in my log from PR's set on loop or out-and-back courses .

Well best of luck regardless of which race you run. How much elevation loss on the 4-miler? Is it rolling or all downhill?

I ended up running the 4-mile this morning and guess I dug myself a hole when I wrote: "How about point-to-point downhill courses? Should they count? This one is tougher, but. I’d say that these need an asterisk and a note explaining elevation loss in feet" I don't know what the elevation loss was but enough to make a difference. It goes slightly up for first half mile, is gently rolling through the middle miles with more down than up. In comparing it with 5k races that I ran around the same time frame in the past, I averaged 2-3 seconds per mile faster for a flat 5k than what I did on this 4 miler. According to some charts, 4 miles should be about 6 sec per mile slower than a 5k. My time this morning was 24:32 (24:30 chip), a new senior's PR but it gets an asterisk. By comparion, my time for past 4 years, including this morning have been 26:10, 25:29, 26:25, and 24:32. I was very happy with my result, net downhilll or not. My goal was sub-25, which I thought would be close. To beat my goal by this much honestly was a surprise. Splits were 6:16, 6:09, 6:10, 5:57.

I ended up running the 4-mile this morning and guess I dug myself a hole when I wrote: "How about point-to-point downhill courses? Should they count? This one is tougher, but. I’d say that these need an asterisk and a note explaining elevation loss in feet" I don't know what the elevation loss was but enough to make a difference. It goes slightly up for first half mile, is gently rolling through the middle miles with more down than up. In comparing it with 5k races that I ran around the same time frame in the past, I averaged 2-3 seconds per mile faster for a flat 5k than what I did on this 4 miler. According to some charts, 4 miles should be about 6 sec per mile slower than a 5k. My time this morning was 24:32 (24:30 chip), a new senior's PR but it gets an asterisk. By comparion, my time for past 4 years, including this morning have been 26:10, 25:29, 26:25, and 24:32. I was very happy with my result, net downhilll or not. My goal was sub-25, which I thought would be close. To beat my goal by this much honestly was a surprise. Splits were 6:16, 6:09, 6:10, 5:57.

Jim, that was the Great Race? Nice run there for your PR, and yes I would count it! BTW, I was supposed to run that race but due to my stupidity I did not. I got up at 7AM day of race and left my house to jog to the start line and register. It was supposed to be about 4.5 miles but somehow I made a wrong turn onto Quito instead of Saratoga and by the time I figured it out I had popped out on the race course at the 2 mile mark! At this point I'd already run 5.7 miles and needed to backtrack to the start 2 miles AND register. So I did and got to the reg table at 8:45AM - whew made it! Nope, they were out of Bibs/Timing Chips but still wanted me to register so I could get a Tshirt. I said no thanks and gave 'em $10 as a donation and just turned my run around and went back home. I ended up doing a 17 miler. At the 2 mile point of the race I stopped and waited for the leaders. The first guy came whizzing by at 9:10:05 - 5 minute miles, followed about 20 yards later by a pack of what looked like High School kids. I'm very disappointed in myself for letting the opportunity to race slip away, I think I could have gone under 25minutes. I WILL pre-register next time.