Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
Resident Millennial
Ace said " This reminds me of our past discussion of marathon goals and RLK (and possibly others) discussed BQs being kind of irrelevant if we're truly training hard and giving it our best."
This idea resonates with some "drama" going on with my team right now. So we have ~15 women who have self-identified as having potential to OTQ for 2020. They're all racing CIM this December. I predict a couple will get it there, some won't but will hopefully chip away a bit, you get the idea. Anyway, we've set up a subgroup for them, dedicating some resources to try to get as many people to OTQ as possible (we had 14 OTQers in 2012, trying to outdo that!), and there is some drama around that subgroup concept, how to execute it in a way that is effective but also not increase the divide between "elite" and not. We want it to be open to all (self-selected) so that everyone can benefit from the extra "marathon fever" and also resources that are going towards this effort. Some people are (IMO) being elitist and want it to be closed because "they face different training issues" etc etc. And a fellow boardmember brought up the concept of - what issues does someone trying to go from 2:55 to 2:45 face that are so vastly "different" from someone trying to go from 3:10 to 3:00? We're all training to improve as much as we can over a certain time interval and given our life constraints. Sure, paces/volume/details differ, but it's not like I'm "training for a 3:10" specifically - I'm training to do the best I can, and wherever it lands it lands. I can learn from someone trying to run in the high 2s, and vice versa, they may be able to learn from me. And this is all why I still laugh when I see RW articles "how to run a BQ" etc.
Anyway, </rant>.
It's been a week , honestly, dealing with team drama (this ^ + get 9 type-A women (our Board) in a room and ... you can extrapolate from there). And work feels to be blowing up in my face. This too shall pass.
keen- sorry to hear that. and can empathize. both grandfathers gone between sept 2016 and march 2018 I'm going back to NY next week for the first time snice grandpa #1's funeral two years ago. Feels heavy.
Max- ha, and on this topic, I see on BG's instagram yesterday that he ran in the Berkeley hills and ran into a particular high-profile local guy on the trails and they ran together (my friend's BF). Jealousy continues.
Ilana- I saw that CSA bike ride and knew it had to be tough with all the switchbacks!! Ooh I just saw a really good article, I think on irunfar, about women/hormones/running. Did I share this with you already? Think you'd find it interesting
BAA- wow, your guys' chatter is how I learned about the new BQ times. I mean... distance running is really popular these days. Everyone's getting faster. And Comm Ave is only so wide. Hm hm.
chicago weather watch!!!! exciting
DId 18x200 (w/ 100 jog) yesterday (we were supposed to do 16, but counting is hard.... ). Went to my torture (massage) guy in the afternoon and now I have purple cupping bruises on my butt and hamstrings. It's a good look.
Hi to all I missed. More catchup later.
_________________________________________________mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
Strict WTF adherent
but it's not like I'm "training for a 3:10" specifically - I'm training to do the best I can, and wherever it lands it lands.
That's the most important thing said here. We may just get a little more fixated in this particular group because for many of us, our best outcomes just happen to align with BQ times. Chasing specific times leads to rotten training practices and can suck all the fun out of running. This is supposed to be fun, right?
Brew - I'd take warm-ish and cloudy 100% of the time in Chicago specifically. The sun there can be a huge energy suck in the last few miles, so the possibility of rain can be your friend. Moving the race to mid-October would help a lot with weather. But I'm too busy running the BAA to take care of that.
Problem Child
And a fellow boardmember brought up the concept of - what issues does someone trying to go from 2:55 to 2:45 face that are so vastly "different" from someone trying to go from 3:10 to 3:00? chicago weather watch!!!! exciting
And a fellow boardmember brought up the concept of - what issues does someone trying to go from 2:55 to 2:45 face that are so vastly "different" from someone trying to go from 3:10 to 3:00?
I think the ACTUAL elites (Jim, Sage, Galen, Mo, Shalane, Kaci, Magdalena, Molly etc.) will tell you there is a VAST difference between taking 10 minutes off a 2:55 and taking 10 minutes off a 3:10. WITH THAT SAID....if you're going for an OTQ using a (no offense) casual running group you may want to rethink your "elite" status and put yourself in check. Yes you're going for an OTQ. You are NOT the primary focus. If you want an elite experience go hire an elite coach. If you want a group experience with a history for creating elites embrace the group. I might also add the cost of joining the group compared to a private coach.
Will the coach work with you towards your OTQ? yes. Does he want to further his reputation as an OTQ coach and make you a notch in his belt? yes. Is there a possibility non-elites runners switch teams AND the OTQ runners don't come back, and is your coach willing to lose 16+ runners along with letting the non-elites tell their friends not to join the team because they cater to elites? Only the coach can decide.
I'll also add I'm not an introvert, or someone who holds back their opinion. I WAS thinking about you yesterday when some girl was cruising downhill on her scooter and came out from behind a car. I imagined what I'd do with her scooter if she hit me. Maybe just ride off into the sunset (lunch run) with it and have a sweet title for the day. Hopefully work gets better. Thanks for watching the weather and making me not feel alone. I watched a video on the 2007 course too.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
brew- hm, a few response points:
- the "actual elites" don't know anything about what it's like to speed up from a 2:55 or a 3:10
- wouldn't call us a casual running group, but yes, theyre really not that elite (we have one who ran a 2:36 2yrs ago, the rest have done 2:52-3:00 range) and should keep in check. many have private (elite) coaches.
- i like what you said here "If you want a group experience with a history for creating elites embrace the group. I might also add the cost of joining the group compared to a private coach." which is more meaningful? probably going it together with a big pack, training and working for it together.
- we also have a unique setup where the coaches are really just hired by the team - yes they are super invested - but it's not like they "run" the team in the way that HS/college coaches do. The Board "runs" the team, so it's us trying to figure out how to have this group, help them achieve their (our) goals, and also use this as an opportunity to raise up the "rest of us" - the 3:05ers, 3:10ers, etc. our team has the byline of "elite development team" - so let's develop the team into elites. not take in elites and keep them where they are, while ignoring the rest.
anyway, there's a lot of context I haven't provided, but there ya have (some of) it. lol.
lol @ scooter. was she in the road though? because that's where (at least in the state of California) anyone over the age of 12 riding a wheeled transportation object belongs. Not on the sidewalk, like the (i estimate) 35 year old d-bag who crushed my foot on Tuesday.
I echo mcB's comments about the last few miles of the course. It wasn't hot per se in 2015, but it felt warm those last few miles.
But brew and arvind, please follow up your race with some beignets and beers. keep the tradition alive!:
(tonz, mcB, mcBW, tboy, rlk)
(mcB's tshirt reads "running sucks". are we surprised?)
Mother of Cats
Catching up partially:
CK - very sorry for you and your family's loss. My best wishes to all, and my thoughts are especially with your grandfather - how wrenching that loss must have been.
Arvind - I can only imagine how you and Brewing must be feeling right now. FWIW, I think the best answer is not to change goals at this late stage (if either of you are considering it), but to run the best race you have in you this cycle, and then use a spring marathon to BQ if you don't hit it this time. Going out aggressively and blowing up will only mean a longer recovery.
Brewing - you must have mis-understood my workout. It ended up being:
1) 16 400m repeats in 1:33 each with 31 second float recovery over 100m.
2) 5 minute break
3) 4 400m repeats in between 85 and 88 seconds, with a full 2:30 recovery after the first 2.
So....not that impressive in that context, especially since 85-88 seconds is often my 400m split when running 800s.
This idea resonates with some "drama" going on with my team right now. So we have ~15 women who have self-identified as having potential to OTQ for 2020. They're all racing CIM this December. I predict a couple will get it there, some won't but will hopefully chip away a bit, you get the idea. Anyway, we've set up a subgroup for them, dedicating some resources to try to get as many people to OTQ as possible (we had 14 OTQers in 2012, trying to outdo that!), and there is some drama around that subgroup concept, how to execute it in a way that is effective but also not increase the divide between "elite" and not. We want it to be open to all (self-selected) so that everyone can benefit from the extra "marathon fever" and also resources that are going towards this effort. Some people are (IMO) being elitist and want it to be closed because "they face different training issues" etc etc. And a fellow boardmember brought up the concept of - what issues does someone trying to go from 2:55 to 2:45 face that are so vastly "different" from someone trying to go from 3:10 to 3:00? We're all training to improve as much as we can over a certain time interval and given our life constraints. Sure, paces/volume/details differ, but it's not like I'm "training for a 3:10" specifically - I'm training to do the best I can, and wherever it lands it lands. I can learn from someone trying to run in the high 2s, and vice versa, they may be able to learn from me. And this is all why I still laugh when I see RW articles "how to run a BQ" etc. Hi to all I missed. More catchup later.
So....what is the sub-group? Just a discussion group? Something more?
On my team, we end up with different FB chats for different pace groups - i.e. I started one for people targeting sub-3 to sub-3:10 at CIM. We do this so that we can coordinate workouts - on my team we have a choice of Tuesday morning/evening intervals, Saturday or Sunday long run, etc. So...the group lets us agree whether to do the long run on Saturday or Sunday of that week, if people want to start early because someone has to get back home, etc. Other pace "regions" on my team do something similar.
There's nothing elitist about it - it's just natural, since we run the same pace.
I do think that one big distinction on my team is that we aren't all US women. We are male and female, and have several foreign nationals on our team. So...our 2:45-ish group has women going for the OTQ, and women who are not US citizens who would like to run that time for other reasons, and also men who just want to run that time. So it's not the "OTQ group", just the "2:45 group."
With any pace group, when you have women and men mixed, it becomes more obvious that the group is about the practicalities of running a specific pace, not a judgment on ability - since the same goal time is a different accomplishment, relatively speaking, for men and women.
(not sure if that addressed your point)
***
10.5 "miles" pool-running and yoga this morning.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Got it. Boards and coaches AND elites makes it hard to just hire a running coach or run with a team . Just remember some people will attempt to train with the elites, sabotage their entire workout, and possibly ruin something that could have been. As for beers and beignets .... I'll take the Beignets because I'm not giving up 8 weeks (Monday) of being sober to ruin it on some weak Goose Island (Budweisre) 312 wheat ale. Apparently a beignet its like a donut, buy classy. Maybe I need a new screenname for 2019 #fatkidlikeshissweets #SweetsRunner there was no sidewalk.
I need a shirt that says "marathon training sucks" in case anyone finds it. Medium. I'll pay shipping.
Dwave Got it on the workout. I didn't account for the break. I thought you jumped into it. Also thanks for the input on the pace/changing goals. I'm hoping for the race of my life. Maybe that "elevation + heat" thing can account for the non-humid weather I'll have on race day. It still makes me a little nervous.
brew- hm, a few response points: - the "actual elites" don't know anything about what it's like to speed up from a 2:55 or a 3:10 - wouldn't call us a casual running group, but yes, theyre really not that elite (we have one who ran a 2:36 2yrs ago, the rest have done 2:52-3:00 range) and should keep in check. many have private (elite) coaches. - i like what you said here "If you want a group experience with a history for creating elites embrace the group. I might also add the cost of joining the group compared to a private coach." which is more meaningful? probably going it together with a big pack, training and working for it together. - we also have a unique setup where the coaches are really just hired by the team - yes they are super invested - but it's not like they "run" the team in the way that HS/college coaches do. The Board "runs" the team, so it's us trying to figure out how to have this group, help them achieve their (our) goals, and also use this as an opportunity to raise up the "rest of us" - the 3:05ers, 3:10ers, etc. our team has the byline of "elite development team" - so let's develop the team into elites. not take in elites and keep them where they are, while ignoring the rest. anyway, there's a lot of context I haven't provided, but there ya have (some of) it. lol. lol @ scooter. was she in the road though? because that's where (at least in the state of California) anyone over the age of 12 riding a wheeled transportation object belongs. Not on the sidewalk, like the (i estimate) 35 year old d-bag who crushed my foot on Tuesday. I echo mcB's comments about the last few miles of the course. It wasn't hot per se in 2015, but it felt warm those last few miles. But brew and arvind, please follow up your race with some beignets and beers. keep the tradition alive!: (tonz, mcB, mcBW, tboy, rlk) (mcB's tshirt reads "running sucks". are we surprised?)
Agree Dwave, my goal was always 3:18 for the race. With the earlier standards, it would be BQ-7. With the new standards it will be BQ-2. I will stick with the 3:20 pace for a while (16miles) and then see if I can speed it up a little bit. this is my current plan
Catching up partially: Arvind - I can only imagine how you and Brewing must be feeling right now. FWIW, I think the best answer is not to change goals at this late stage (if either of you are considering it), but to run the best race you have in you this cycle, and then use a spring marathon to BQ if you don't hit it this time. Going out aggressively and blowing up will only mean a longer recovery.
-Elite start for Rossi.
lolz
My week:
M: 6 easy
T: 7 easy
W: 7 easy
Th: 1h XT
F: 10 easy
S: 10 easy
S: 1h XT
total = 40
Slow progress. No real problems.
Looking good Rovati. Happy for you.
Mon 4@9
Tues 8@9
Weds 8@9
Thurs 8@9
Fri 10@9
Sat 6@9
Sun 16@8.56
60@8:56
My first 60 mile week in 3 years. 198 for Sept @8:46. Did better today, with 16@72% AHR. A stroll in the park, and a lot better than last week's mess. We're off for a week of travel, so low mileage, but still shooting for 200 in Oct.
m: 2:55:04 | 10k: 37:14 | 50mile: 9:35
pie man
I had a decent week, at least for me lately. I did 5 easy on Tuesday (from the barracks). Then a trail run Thursday on a very recently opened trail through river fire country (1800 climb if you believe the gps/strava).
Friday I went to the local track and did a workout, 1600, 2x800, 4x400 for a little variety, all pretty close to 6:20 pace tho.
Today was a 7 mile trip up a long hill nearby, but less climb than Thursday,
so thats 24 miles. Not a lot, but more than the rest of the month. Although with hikes and work mileage I was probably over 100 for September.
The high school track was funny. Defiantly had trucks driven on it at some point. I moved benches out of lane one, cause I had no problem with lumpy dirt and weeds growing everywhere, but no way was I running that extra distance...
i didn’t go to Sac at all. I went to hike and wound up in Santa Rosa. But it was nice. I want to find a bad idea, but really can’t afford any right now. California fat ass doesn’t come up with anything in a search. Well anything useful anyway.
11:11 3,000 (recent)
PJ: I've moved benches off high school tracks as well. That 25 feet of running in lane 2 was just too much, haha. Sounds like a fun week with some diverse runs.
FB: Nice week!
Had a good week this week with a strong workout on Tuesday and a solid LR this weekend. I accidentally saved my run when I stopped to refill my water at mile 11. I hate when I do this because I want all the data in one set for the long run. Oh well. The last 6 miles were at roughly MP or better (6:58, 6:42. 6:43, 6:39, 6:43, 6:41). Legs are pretty tight today. Felt a little like the tin man on this morning's easy 5.
I'm running a 15k on Sunday. First race for me at this distance.
Mon Sep 24
6.10
7:53
Morning Run
Tue Sep 25
2.01
8:00
3.39
5:40
5x1000 3:00 rest (3:40, 3:35, 3:27, 3:25, 3:15)
2.02
8:17
Thu Sep 27
7:55
Watching the rain from the mill
Fri Sep 28
7.14
8:05
Hill Run
Sat Sep 29
3.38
7:57
Just a little shakeout
Sun Sep 30
11.28
8:02
Long Run Part 1 (watch user error)
10.02
7:13
LR Part 2 with 6 mile pickup
51.44
7:42
Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)
Mon - Bike
Tues - Travel
Wed - LOL
Thurs - More bike. Beer. Ate dinner twice.
Fri - Weights. Ate lunch twice.
Sat - Hiked instead of running because that's my life now, then nearly froze to death because people with houses still insist on camping and that's my life now too.
Sun - So much coffee.
PJ- plenty of bad ideas to be had on TRT, PCT, JMT, and I'm sure max knows of others. Could run the Lost Coast (potential "badness" from tide miscalculations). Shasta (I've never been)?
The trail sign at the foot of Marin Headlands' Coastal Trail reads "Oregon Border, 482mi" - that's a bad idea (photo here https://trailhead.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/10988/the-story-of-marincello/)
ace- those are fast k's! nice week!
mcB- lolol
cross country yesterday. but work shitstorm now, so i'll post about the race later. (teaser- kinase outkicked me!)
rovatti & FB: Good to see you two making a comeback.
M: SickT: Sick
W: 13-hour work day
T: 6.75
F: another long work day
S: Sick
S: 4
Total: 10.75. Got a nasty head cold/sinus infection, felt as though it was heading into my lungs. Finally starting to get over it. Good news was that Sunday's run was slower and my knee didn't pop at all, so hopefully I can start adding some slower-paced mileage this week...