Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
Rick
Congrats on your races runners. Thanks for the mini reports.
60 miles for the week on 11 sessions. 4 sessions had hill repeats, 1 had intervals. No long runs and only a few moderate efforts. Higher percentage of flat road miles.
Playing with the Jack Daniels Pace Calculator and becoming very humbled. I think I can hit the paces for 3:30, but 3:20 is a step up for sure. However, not going to get discouraged and I am going to put in the work.
Never mentioned my weight in my posts. I am in the process of losing. My usual cycle is gain in the fall, lose in the spring and summer. Trying to break that this year and keep the fall weight off. Was 195 in the spring. Currently 183. I had a good August where I stopped drinking for the month and that shed some pounds. Thinking about starting another cycle of that. Otherwise the diet is pretty good other than evening snacking. Would like to get to the starting line at 175 but I will be sacrificing some muscle to get there. Oh, I am 6 feet tall.
12-22 Last One Standing - dnf 37 miles
1-23 Sun Marathon - 3:53
3-4-23 Red Mountain 55k - 7:02
4-15-23 Zion 100 - 27:59
Hearty congrats DW
Not the important race of the day, but I ran 66:02 at Army 10 Miler - obviously far off my PR, but I'm still pretty happy with it - a starting temp of 72 with a dew point of 70 meant it was not going to be a fast day. I'm happy with it for where I am in my CIM training. Looks like I was 3rd female master, and I also got a nice travel mug for finishing in the top 100 women (Army is a BIG race - 35,000 runners, so they do stuff like that) Race report.
Not the important race of the day, but I ran 66:02 at Army 10 Miler - obviously far off my PR, but I'm still pretty happy with it - a starting temp of 72 with a dew point of 70 meant it was not going to be a fast day. I'm happy with it for where I am in my CIM training. Looks like I was 3rd female master, and I also got a nice travel mug for finishing in the top 100 women (Army is a BIG race - 35,000 runners, so they do stuff like that)
Race report.
Speed Surplus
Brew: Sorry to hear about the rough second half. But hey, you set a half marathon PR! Just followed with a painful 13.1 mile cooldown.
Arvind: Also condolences. I think hill training is still smart for a flat course, but perhaps a long run or two exclusively on flat surfaces would have helped, at least mentally. How many marathons have you raced? I had pretty bad cramps in my first two, only slight cramping in my third, and almost none in my fourth. I credit compression sleeves for my calves with most of this, and a tiny percentage to just "getting used to the marathon."
DW: 66x is far off your PR? Well, damn! Still sounds pretty fast. Congrats on AG podium.
I might have missed a Keen check-in, but it looks like he ran 88-flat for a small PR.
My week: I ran 26 miles last week as I start to build up for another freaking marathon, I guess. Then I shredded every muscle in my body trying to refinish my front porch on Saturday.
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
This is my 4th marathon. I took my compression socks for eh race, but did not wear them
Interestingly
1. First marathon - No cramps
2. Second marathon - Cramps
3. Third MArathon - No cramps, Pr and BQ
4. Fourth MArathon - Cramps
Cobra Commander Keen
Rick - Welcome!
Oregon - Bummer about CIM but awesome for your oldest. Speed work on your own certainly is more challenging - there are certainly times when I wish I had someone to do those workouts with. Maybe I can convince the track coach to hold practices at 4:30AM for the upcoming season...
Rune - That extra bit of recovery after the T segments really helps, doesn't it??
DWave - Good job at Army, especially with that heat/humidity.
Brew - Bummer about the stomach problems - I'm also curious as to whether or not you have an idea as to the cause. Current thoughts on the State of Brew's Running?
Arvind - Great job sticking with it when the cramps started. I've known quite a few people train for Chicago on hills, then have serious issues with the flatness of the race (btw, you handled it far better than any of them did). Personally, I'm sick of running LRs and workouts on flats trying to avoid that for my (super-flat) goal M next month.
Starting gels at 2:30 would be way late for me - for marathons I like getting my nutrition in pretty frequently and starting early.
SClever - You certainly have me mistaken for someone who ran a much faster race than I did!
A light(ish) week done from me, including my slowest-ever raced HM (geez, it was hot, humid, and hilly!). We'll see if I come up with a RR for this one or not. 3 more big weeks ahead for me (hopefully 80-85miles) before I FINALLY hit the taper. I pushed my scheduled workouts back a day (from Mon/Thurs to Tues/Fri) to allow an extra easy day between that first workout and the half. While I felt fine during the run this morning, I likely wouldn't have been able to hit the workout the way I want to if I did it today.
Weekly SummaryMonday, Oct 01, 2018 thru Sunday, Oct 07, 2018
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Pace Prophet
Arvind, I suspect you have diagnosed your problem right here:
Everything wemt as per the plan until mile 19. I crossed half in 1:41:10 and was with the pacer until mile 16. I started pushing a bit and was ahead of the pacer by a few yards and kept running. AT mile 18, my left quads started to hurt and it became worse in mile 19...
You may have been in shape for the 3:20 (or 3:22, I guess, what you were on the half) but when you left the pacer, perhaps you pushed too much and out of your fitness level. I had a similar experience at Houston in 2012; I was on pace for sub-3:30 but got cocky at mile 20 and accelerated a bit too much. Fortunately in the last miles I only fell back to just slower than my previous pace so I still made my 3:29, but I was cramping and unhappy for a while.
Late-race muscle cramps are almost always the result of outrunning your fitness. Unfortunately with the marathon it's hard to tell just what your fitness is since it's an endurance issue.
Rick - I ran my PR on a lot of trail running as well as road running, so don't feel you have to give up what you love. I also seem to recall you live at altitude? It's impossible for me to hit prescribed paces, which I think is partly because I'm more endurance than speed, and partly because I live at 6600'. I find MP quite hard outside races, and my short intervals were never that great.
This is an awesome group. Thank you all for the concern and wishes. I finished in 3:35:57 My plan was to be with the 3:20 pacer for first 16-17 miles and speed up if my body permits and do a 3:18. Everything wemt as per the plan until mile 19. I crossed half in 1:41:10 and was with the pacer until mile 16. I started pushing a bit and was ahead of the pacer by a few yards and kept running. AT mile 18, my left quads started to hurt and it became worse in mile 19, I also started to feel a bit of cramping in my right calf, My right quad joined the party as well. I decided not to push and reduced my speed. It was miserable in the last 2 miles. It became worse towards the end. I need to find out the root case of these cramp. I had 3 scoops of ucan at the start of the race and started taking gels at 2:30 hrs. I had a gel every 30-40 min, gels until the last mile. I also had gatorade at each aid station. RAce Preparation I felt that I was prepared well for this race, Unlike Richmond where I faded in the last 3 miles, I did not hit the fade this time. I logged 60+ miles each week for 19 weeks 1067 miles in all. I did five 20 milers and hill repeats each week. I reduced my strength and cross training a bit to factor more miles. 1. Wondering if my fueling strategy went wrong 2. Should I have done more leg work especially quads. 3. The fat course took on me, may be I should have done more long runs on flat surfaces. All my long runs were on hills courses and I did hill repeats each week as well. Not sure if this is appropriate for flat courses like Chicago. 4. May be I dont have the 3:20 in me yet, and I pushed for it causing the cramps Time to take a step back and reflect on what i can do better next time.
This is an awesome group. Thank you all for the concern and wishes.
I finished in 3:35:57
My plan was to be with the 3:20 pacer for first 16-17 miles and speed up if my body permits and do a 3:18. Everything wemt as per the plan until mile 19. I crossed half in 1:41:10 and was with the pacer until mile 16. I started pushing a bit and was ahead of the pacer by a few yards and kept running. AT mile 18, my left quads started to hurt and it became worse in mile 19, I also started to feel a bit of cramping in my right calf, My right quad joined the party as well. I decided not to push and reduced my speed. It was miserable in the last 2 miles. It became worse towards the end. I need to find out the root case of these cramp.
I had 3 scoops of ucan at the start of the race and started taking gels at 2:30 hrs. I had a gel every 30-40 min, gels until the last mile. I also had gatorade at each aid station.
RAce Preparation
I felt that I was prepared well for this race, Unlike Richmond where I faded in the last 3 miles, I did not hit the fade this time. I logged 60+ miles each week for 19 weeks 1067 miles in all. I did five 20 milers and hill repeats each week. I reduced my strength and cross training a bit to factor more miles.
1. Wondering if my fueling strategy went wrong
2. Should I have done more leg work especially quads.
3. The fat course took on me, may be I should have done more long runs on flat surfaces. All my long runs were on hills courses and I did hill repeats each week as well. Not sure if this is appropriate for flat courses like Chicago.
4. May be I dont have the 3:20 in me yet, and I pushed for it causing the cramps
Time to take a step back and reflect on what i can do better next time.
It kind of sounds like it just wasn't your day, but I do think it might have been beneficial to start with the gel around mile 6 to 8. Get plenty of water. I think I hit 5 or 6 water stations at Chicago yesterday.Another thing is really being honest about your fitness. I wanted to hit 7:20's the whole way yesterday but I knew that would be kind of dangerous to thing to attempt based on what I was doing on my long runs.
You sort of need to look at what pace you can comfortably handle for 22 or 23 miles and just tough out the rest. Just in my experience on Sunday, you need to keep very consistent with your pacing and not do any type of surging until the end when you've got nothing left anyways. The marathon is a very tricky race, there is almost no room for error.
Brew - Sucks about your stomach issues, and I can't even imagine toughing out the second half of the race with a HR that refuses to come down. Big kudos to you for hanging in there. I can certainly relate (Oakland Marathon, SF Giant Half) but at least when it's happened to me one quick trip to the Portapotty has fixed everything for me. It would be interesting to hear your and Arvind's reports on how you perceived the weather. A local guy called in perfect and he ended up setting a huge PR (8 minutes, from 2:50 in Boston this year to 2:42 in Chicago).
Arvind - Sorry to hear about the cramps, but way to hang in there for a good finish. I tend to believe in specificity when it comes to training, so if the race is going to be flat on a hard surface, I think it's good for your legs to be used to that. At least I'm hoping it's helped make me somewhat ready for my upcoming race.
DW - Nice race for you too, and congrats with the placement and mug!
Keen - Yes, those extra seconds of recovery between the tempo intervals sure helped, just too bad nothing could save me yesterday . Nice "light-ish" week for you btw!
Rick - Yes, some of those paces can be very intimidating, especially his m-pace.
OMR, Rovatti - Nice weeks.
McBen - Hope you get your hamstring figured out.Mine has been bothering me slightly for the last couple of months (something at the top where it attaches to the hip), but I usually don't feel much once I'm warmed up. It's just sore afterwards. Since it's not getting worse I'm waiting for two more weeks to do something about it.
I had a very mixed week. Had a great tempo workout on Wednesday, but yesterday nothing seemed to work (might have been a combination of several things, including unusually warm temperatures for us here - 80s). As a result of feeling like crap yesterday I cut my workout short (did 2-2-1 miles at tempo effort instead of 2-2-2) and just did a mile and a half cooldown instead of the planned 8. So distance wise I guess my taper has already started. This week I have some crazy E-T-M-E-T-M-E workout on Wednesday and 10 easy miles for the weekend. I still have no idea what pace I should start at in 2 weeks.
5k: 20:32 (1/17) | HM: 1:34:37 (2/18) | FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)
Getting back into it
Congrats DW!
Brew - sorry about the stomach issues and rough race.You're right, checkers or wreckers doesn't always end with checkers. You seem to have a good attitude about it.
Arvind - I like Ilana's assessment re: analysis. I've never successfully sped up in a marathon until mile 18. By then I seem to know if I can crank it a bit or if I just need to hold on.
Hey to everyone else. I'm reading..
Still not much running going on here - I have no idea what is going on with this calf/achilles but it's still annoying me and as I gain weight I can't imagine that'll help. I've been walking, going to yoga, and spinning. It's hard to add many miles when you're steadily gaining 30 lbs .I tried dry needling last week and that actually seemed to help, so maybe I'll do that more. Assuming at SOME point this thing has to get better, I've tentatively decided on Chicago 2019 as my come back from baby 2.. I totally said I wouldn't do one 6m pp again, but I think I may have lied. I cautiously told DH about my plan last week and he seemed to be okay with it, on the condition that he can take a guys trip to Cuba right before. Compromises.. lol.
PRs: HM: 1:32:59 (2015); FM: 3:18:36 (2017)
Problem Child
I honestly think my issue was Gatorade gels and drink. Maybe it’s too much sugar or just a mass produced form I don’t agree with now that I’m old. I did some runs with the vanilla, bought apple and raspberry, and nothing worked. I’m sure people remember me saying it hurt and the idea was maybe it was too much (Gatorade plus gels. Gatorade every 22 min, gel every 45) but the only other product I’ve had problems with is NUUN and even at half strength that curled my stomach. I don’t think it was weather. Heart rate could honestly be just humidity and pushing hard for a PR when the fitness might not have actually been there. Even my half time suggests a 3:14 (which BLOWS) which matches my 10k time from the beginning of training.
weather, while humid, didn’t SEEM to be enough to make me think anything of slowing down. The wind was almost non existent except for a few pockets. The humidity, while probably pushing 90%, maybe have caused the heart to work harder because I couldn’t cool my body but the rain was a light drizzle. Even the temperatures were okay and once I got everything back to a comfortable level I was able to make it through a 2 hour half marathon with a 13 mile warm up. It may not have been in the cards today but moving forward on the goal I’m going with a nutrition plan I know works, and getting back to testing it out even on easy runs. I think I relied too much on my “iron stomach” that has gotten me through a few other races with minimal problems.
edit: even with doing as much running on flat surfaces, as flat as I could find, this seemed different. At home it never felt like it did here. This almost felt like” treadmill 0% unrealistically flat “ flat. Sheet happens. What am I going to do about it? Sit in a corner, drink away my pain, cry over it and quit, or grow up, put on my big boy pant, build a bridge over this river of tears and get over it? Boston isn’t going anywhere, and neither is the desire to run it. Even if it is windy, rainy, freezing, and miserable. I want that fawking unicorn.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
You echoed my sentiments. Boson is not going anywhere and I will come back stronger to qualify and run it. Every race is a lessons learned and we get better
RIP Milkman
Brew - sorry to hear about the stomach issues. I guess my only question is how much you trained your stomach to take in gels and Gatorade as you did. I would make sure to get at least two long (10+) MP runs with 2 gels and a Gatorade. Also to be clear: you said gels every 45, but Gatorade every 22. You didn't take Gatorade with your gels did you?
Other than that, I love your approach. You had a great cycle and even though it didn't go well in the race, it won't go to waste. You can definitely go for a BQ again this spring, and if anything it'll be even easier with a) what you've learned with your stomach and b) another cycle under your belt
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Brew: As someone who lives in a part of the world where I can easily run 20+ miles with 10 feet of elevation change, I can attest to the fact that flat-flat-flat is hard. If it's on concrete rather than asphalt, it's worse. There is a relentlessness to it that gradually wears one down (at least for me), and it's more difficult to train for than one might expect. Regarding gels and Gatorade, I've typically done gels early with water, and gatorade later when my stomach can't handle gels any more. I don't think I could handle both gels and Gatorade at the same time. And at some point, my stomach doesn't want anything, and hopefully that's around mile 26! ;-)
+1 to Jmac. You've had a great cycle...sometimes, it takes a second marathon for that to pay off. At least that's how it has worked for me.
Duke Of Bad Judgment
Brew: 1) Don't do gels and gatorade at the same time. They interfere with each other. 2) Chicago IMHO is a great locals race but not worth the trip. If you want to go fast, stay local and run CIM. If you want to travel, pick a place you want to visit and plan on a fun run. If you want an interesting race experience, do a trail race/ultra. Simple rules to live by. 3) What everyone else has said about it sometimes taking 2 or 3 tries after training to see the benefits. Marathons suck, even if you (mostly) don't.
Arvind: What Ilana said about cramps - the best thinking is that it's from running too fast relative to your fitness. I wouldn't worry about the cramps, I'd try to nail down the right goal for a race and then try to run exactly that pace from start to finish. Several of us here have decided it's our day at mile 15 or 20 or 22 and then wrecked what could have been a good race. Save that extra energy so that you can maintain your goal pace when you feel really rotten. Rick: 11 sessions seems like a lot for 60 miles in a week. Could you run more miles if you did fewer sessions and didn't have to shower a 2nd/3rd time in a day? Or simply make your life less complicated? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by hill repeats, but it also seems like you have quality more days than you should.
DWave: Congrats - since SirJim seems to be absent, it's good to see you picking up his "I raced today, got some bling, not a big deal" mantle.
Clever: Good to know that porch refinishing is cross-training. I've done some of that but never counted it. I will start doing that.
Keen: Your slowest-ever half is faster than my fastest-ever half. Just FYI.
Post Of The Day: "The marathon is a very tricky race, there is almost no room for error." (from Brosendahl) The most common error people make is signing up to begin with.
RunTheChamp: Obvious answer to your pace question - start at a pace you can maintain for 26.2 miles. I'll be available afterwards if you have any additional questions or want me to sign the book...
KK and OMR: Hi!
So... I have this Euchre Bar Massacre thing on Saturday. I got the secret directions and map today and I'm pretty excited now - it seems real and vaguely do-able. I was originally signed up for the 50 mile - which has about 8 finishers ever - but dropped to the 25 mile event (~19 finishers) because DW will be with me and the 25 mile event might only eat one day of my life. I get to go up and down hills called things like "Idiot's Gambit" and "The Nun's Finger". And apparently the worst blackberry thickets are in the 50 mile race. Still have to deal with poison oak but according to the FB group, that's what Mean Green Scrub is for. (Public school bathroom soap was also recommended.) I also got some good advice on how to get the best oakgasm, which apparently is a thing.
Brew: Sorry you had a rough second half. Way to push through and finish! I've always had trouble with gatorade during races. My gut does not like it. I think you need a "bad idea" to get this marathon out of your system.
Arvind: Nice effort at Chicago. You've put in a really solid training block. Do you think you'll race again in the near future?
DW: Nice 10 miler! Your race sounded similar to my 15k on Sunday. Hot and humid!!
Rick: Welcome! The folks (not me) here have some good marathon advice. Best of luck with training.
Sunday's 15k was okay. Using Keen's Kiwi calculator (or whatever that was called) our race start was 140 (temp 72, DP 68). I may do a RR if I get some time. We have a busy week. The short of it was I went out too fast for the heat and humidity, but just tried to hold effort throughout the race. The first 3 are downhill, the last 6 uphill. I was just bummed that my effort resulted in some slow miles on the back half. However, looking at other's results, we all had similar patterns. I finished 7th out of 270ish and got 2nd in my age group.
edit: For those of you not on Strava: I kicked a chihuahua on my run yesterday. It was kind of crazy. He started chasing me, got too close, so I gave him the boot, then he ran off. To his credit he did a half flip and a gnarly 360!
Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)