Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
Agree on unsolicited coaching advice -- it's probably not going to accomplish what was set out to be accomplished. I don't run with a team, but I imagine that it can be tough to focus on your own goals when there are lots of people around you also focusing on their own goals, which I can see as being a drawback. I'm sure the benefits of having a group to run workouts with make it worth it, but as with anything, there are downsides.
Darkwave: Glad there was a CVS handy, even if the employee was a very slow walker.
5 miles recovery this morning after a challenging track workout yesterday (challenging for me, anyway. 8 miles with 5x1000, 5k pace, 3 min recovery). I am on track to go over 40 miles this week for the first time in awhile, so I'm happy about that. After a few days of summer it's back to rain and 50 degrees here. My oldest has a track meet tonight - should be fun. He has taken almost 20 sec off his 3k this season, and is hoping for a good race tonight. I think he's glad it's not sunny and 85.
Speed Surplus
All right guys, my marathon is approaching and I'm starting to freak out. I'm calculating how many miles I ran in the leadup to the last one and checking weather and doing all this insane stuff.
I've been hitting 50 mpw for a few weeks and feeling fit, but I just checked and I'm only averaging 40 mpw for the past 10 weeks total. I have about 6 weeks to go, and I hope to peak at around 60, but maintain 50-55 in the other weeks, except for taper. So my average will probably shake out to be...somewhere around 46...which is exactly what I averaged for 18 weeks leading up to my 3:22 at Eugene.
I need to go faster than that. Of course, Eugene had about 350 feet of gain, and this race has minus 2,000. That's huge for me. And Eugene was hot...but who knows what the weather will be like on 6/10 in Snoqualmie...
Does the ~2 years of consistent training between 5/16 and this race count for anything? Is the downhill enough? I need to run 3:10, dammit!
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
Replying to myself...
I found a calculator that converts Eugene's 3:22:55 to roughly 3:20 on a perfectly flat course, and gives me 3:12:06 with 2,000 feet of downhill.
So...that's getting there!
Cobra Commander Keen
SClever - Breathe! Deep breaths, now. The consistency in the last couple years should count for a good deal. And if you're feeling fit now you should be in good shape at the end of the end of the next 6 weeks.
I have no input on the downhill since I've never done one like that before. Do you have a way of getting in some heat training the last 2-3 weeks? I've hit the treadmill (inside garage, no doors/fans for airflow) for some runs over the last couple weeks and I think that's helped me.
ETA: What calculator did you find?
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Resident Millennial
dkgg, pj- yes, our under40 team has marathoners running between 2:36-3:25ish, so mostly sub-elite. note that i am on the slow end i agree with pj and dwave. when you have group training, it something like tradition school - you have to find something that mostly works for most people. often it is scaleable, and if not, make your own adjustments as needed. (our slowest workout group, mostly comprised of age 60+ women, always shorten the long intervals and often get additional recovery time if things are not shortened).
pj- yes, indeed ... coach gives WAY more attention to the front group. like, never gives us feedback on anything. this is a big issue we're trying to work on with him... (i am on the team's board). i don't blame him for having speed goggles, but his internal thoughts vs outward perceptions should still be appropriate. after all, he's a hired employee, and if only 20% of the customers are getting what they're paying for, doesn't sound very good.
as oregon said, i think with running, the benefit of training with others can outweigh the detriment of not having a 150% individual plan. there is always a range for # of intervals, and at the end of the day, we decide what pace we run. i was very at peace with my decision to stray from the group for both the 10k pace interval (a bunch of ~41min 10k runners ran 6:00 pace for it...) and then the in/out 200s.
dwave- haha, yep. sad to let them go when it's friends whose running you truly care about, but so it goes. you are absolutely right that it will enable me to 'run my own race' better. that track 5000 i did was super demoralizing and lonely and pitiful, because i had to work hard for 12.5 laps by myself. i should have no excuse for the 'by myself' part of it. it's funny how, in the past few years, i've really gotten used to have buddies for all of my 'hard' running, and now i think i'm worse at doing that alone.
i like the hat story!
and hahaha laughing at your CVS story. (i wonder if ilana thinks my non-capitalized writing is at least more readable than fully-dashed-writing ). it's been awhile since i've found myself in that situation, but i feel your pain. the good thing about living in a city is you can often find a drugstore or coffee shop or something to beg. the bad thing about living in a city is you can't find a nice forested area to TCB!
_________________________________________________mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
sc- re. mileage and all that, there's nothing you can do now. just relax ... and trust the consistency! as Des says, just keep showing up. you've been doing that! as for time/pace calculations, well, i will always leave that to ilana. good luck and don't forget to have fun!
FWIW, my definition of elite is sub ;12/2:13, and sub-elite sub 2:20/2:21. My main point is the 30/40 workout or derivative is extremely hard to execute properly. They are either ran way too fast in the beginning and people poop out from going to anearobic, or to slow and the stimulus is really there. This also has the risk of causing someone to go too anearobic which can have huge negative impacts on their aerobic conditioning. If you race 5/10K in an elite environment then this workout has merit to train for surges and being able to recover from them. Since the probability of everyone else running it correctly is so low, and there is huge risks in running incorrectly, there are much better workouts to do especially since everyone is probably training for different distances from 5K up to the Marathon.
PR's: Mar - 2:44;50 1/2 Mar - 1:16:59 10 Mile 58:03 10K - 33:30 (Back in High School)
On the comeback trail.
dkgg- we are all women. sub2:13 would be .. something!totally agree with your analysis. it's a tough one to do properly (and most of my teammates failed and did the anaerobic thing you described), but it is nice to not do the same old, plain old tempo or LT runs all the time. we race in a team circuit in which we (well, the women who are faster than me) often vie for place to earn points, so i see value in practicing the surges. right now we are training for mile-12k, mostly.
you seem to know a lot about coaching/training. what is your background / which type of training have you followed in the past?
pie man
I agree that's not the ideal behavior. And it would be a very helpful thing if your group would run the workout right, if the coach isn't going to focus on everybody. That sorta goes without saying.
If it makes you feel better my pace is decidedly at the middle of the women's side of our group and will rabbit for them to my own detriment. Our guys are blazing away from the start as well as the faster ladies. But i'm very much at peace with that, as you said.
11:11 3,000 (recent)
dkgg- we are all women. sub2:13 would be .. something!totally agree with your analysis. it's a tough one to do properly (and most of my teammates failed and did the anaerobic thing you described), but it is nice to not do the same old, plain old tempo or LT runs all the time. we race in a team circuit in which we (well, the women who are faster than me) often vie for place to earn points, so i see value in practicing the surges. right now we are training for mile-12k, mostly. you seem to know a lot about coaching/training. what is your background / which type of training have you followed in the past?
I study all sorts of endurance training from Daniels, Canova, Pfitzinger, Lydiard, Kipchoge, Magness, cycling, and even swimming. If you want some really good books to read get The Science of Winning and Swimming Faster. Both get into the physiology of training better then any other books I have seen.
I am also a National Class (or was, trying to get back) Grand Masters Marathoner. I actually follow and have been coached by Tinman (Thomas Schwartz) whom coached Drew Hunter, Grace Ping, and a few record setting masters runners. I originally self coached myself using his methods prior to hiring him. I prefer to have a coach whom specifically writes a plan only for me and not what works on the majority of people. As you know, what works for the majority of people does not necessarily work for yourself and what is harder is getting the volume/frequency to be correct. When I saw the 200 in/out workout I just cringed as that workout would kill me. Anaerobic work outside of small doses wears me out both physically and mentally. I show really good progress for a couple of weeks then I go the other way and get over-trained. On the flip side, I can do 20+ with 12/13 at MP and fell great the next day. That is why it is so tough to use one program for everyone. The book The Science of Winning goes into this in quite some depth, and explains which type of athlete you should assign specific volume/frequency for different types of workouts. If you enjoy technical talk on the physiology of training this I highly recommend this book. I know Magness and other running coaches hold it in very high regard.
My philosophy is to also look at what the elite athletes are doing and honestly ask yourself the question if it is really the right thing to do. Sometimes, even scaling the volume/frequency back is not the right path to take. Looking at the Elite Kenyan/Ethiopian Marathoners is a good example. Their aerobic systems are so advanced and built up, what they are doing works for them as they need that additional stress to advance. For us whom still have a lot of headroom with our aerobic systems, we are better served not trying to mimic their training, even scaled down.
Regardless, training is always a hard thing to talk about as everyone has their own philosophies which is good, we may have different goals, and we may respond differently to different methods. I for one do not have the answers to what is the best training and I don't think that anyone does. Otherwise everyone would be using the exact same training method. I personally challenge my beliefs on training all the time and I hope others do as well.
That was rather long winded. Sorry if I came across as thinking I know the correct way to train as I don't. I saw your frustration with the workout and I can see why and why most others failed at running it correctly. I just believe in trying to find the easiest way to accomplish the end goal with applying the least amount of stress on the body/mind. I know I would have a hard time getting pacing correct on doing the 200 in/out correct unless I did it a bunch of times.
Having 2 years of consistent training will do more than have higher mileage and inconsistent training.
Did 4 to yoga not-easy-because-I-didn't-hit-the-bathroom-before-I-left-because-it-was-only-four-miles-and-then-I-realized-two-miles-in-that-was-a-grave-mistake-and-begged-my-way-into-a-CVS-where-they-don't-let-you-use-the-bathroom-but-I-was-obviously-in-distress-and-doubled-over-because-it-would-all-come-out-if-I-stood-up-straight-so-she-took-pity-on-me-and-walking-very-slowly-let-me-into-the-back-area-where-I-had-a-tremendously-satisfying-poop-and-my-heart-rate-was-much-lower-after-that (9:28). Then yoga, followed by 6 easy (9:31) plus drills and two strides.
Welcome to my life . I have a pretty advanced knowledge of available public/store bathrooms in the vicinity of my running routes just for this reason.
RLK - What others said. Just stay out of it and do things the way coach tells you to, if that works for you.
SC - What the others said for you too, but I think with 6 weeks to go your workouts can still have an impact. Maybe not huge but maybe enough to get you on the right side of your goal. So stick to your plan as best as you can and you should be ready for the race.
I finally ran with some speed yesterday and did a 15x1/1 fartlek workout. 6:12 (3:51) average pace on the fast segments, 7:57 (4:56) on the slower ones (talking about training for surging, turns out this workout is more similar to RLK's than I first thought...). Also had a couple of unscheduled stops in between (I might go to the doctor to figure out if I need to do something with my stomach...). Now my left foot hurts a bit (upper, outside part) but I think it's still good for a run this afternoon.
5k: 20:32 (1/17) | HM: 1:34:37 (2/18) | FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)
Getting back into it
I finally ran with some speed yesterday and did a 15x1/1 fartlek workout. 6:12 (3:51) average pace on the fast segments, 7:57 (4:56) on the slower ones.
Were those KMs -- as in 30K or minutes?
LOL on DkW's use-of-hyphens-to-enhance-the-storytelling! BT/DT
Oregon ~ 5x1K @ 5K w/ 3' rec is a good solid workout for anyone
SC ~ Freaking out over a June race already? I thought I was bad!!!
Sorry, minutes. Kms would have been brutal! And I always translate the paces for the Kiwis on the 1:30 board
It's here: http://www.runworks.com/calculator.html
As for the consistency, I did have an injury that forced me into cycling for a few months last year, but even then I was getting several hours of aerobic work each week. Outside of that, I've trained consistently in the 30 mpw range.