2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 464 times)

Fishyone


     

    Fishy - I wouldn't run a race that has bad GPS AND lacks clocks at every mile. NYCM is notorious for bad GPS signals, but with clocks at every mile, it doesn't matter.

     

     

    When my garmin died at mile 20 or so in Boston I was trying to do the math on the clocks and it only added to my general feeling of being pissed off 

    5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

    Fishyone


      I’ve just opened a B.A.A account and will be registering on Monday. 

       

      Great news.  I have a BQ - 4Tight lippedx which may hold up.  I may try to get in just to be a first hand witness Cal Vs Mikkey

       

      I'm thinking "the Brawl in Beantown"

      5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

      SteveChCh


      Hot Weather Complainer

        darkwave - That's how I'm trying to look at it.

         

        Mark - Well done on being sensible, something I sometimes fail to do.

         

        My week was good except the last 10km of the long run.  Now it's taper time, let the madness begin!

         

        Weekly for period: From: 05/09/2022 To 11/09/2022

        Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
        in m
        05/09 Warm up 0.34 0.54 00:03:18 09:42 06:07 0
        05/09 Easy pace 8.76 14.10 01:11:17 08:08 05:03 19
        05/09 Strides 0.72 1.15 00:05:55 08:13 05:09 0
        07/09 Warm up 0.32 0.52 00:02:54 09:04 05:35 0
        07/09 Med-Long incl. 10 x 800m (3:17-19) with 1 min recoveries 11.31 18.19 01:26:29 07:39 04:45 11
        08/09 Recovery 5.53 8.90 00:49:10 08:53 05:31 11
        09/09 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:13 09:28 05:51 0
        09/09 Easy pace 7.54 12.14 01:01:40 08:11 05:05 11
        09/09 Strides 0.74 1.20 00:05:53 07:57 04:54 0
        10/09 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:23 09:57 06:09 0
        10/09 Long incl. 3 x (7km @ MP, 2km easy) 22.41 36.07 02:55:11 07:49 04:51 39
        11/09 Recovery 4.04 6.50 00:38:08 09:26 05:52 9

        Total distance: 100.40km

        Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

        Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

        Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

        Fishyone


           

          Just saw this.  Yup - I wear a watch so I have the data after, but don't have pace visible on it.  For training runs I usually use a screen that displays time of day, heart rate, and overall distance covered.   Occasionally on the track I will use a screen that shows lap time (this is for long tempos or other workouts where I may forget how many laps I have done - since GPS is screwy on the track, lap time is a better indicator than distance).  So many times I don't know what paces I've held until I'm done with the run and can review everything

           

          For races, I go with a screen that is totally useless - I don't know what time I'm going to run until I see the finish clock.

           

          This works really well for me because, like Steve, I tend to get a little too much into my own head if I have the constant feedback from a watch.  Without that feedback, I'm able to focus on just giving my best effort, whatever that may be that day.  I know that this doesn't work for other people, who benefit from the prodding of a watch.  But for me, my best workouts and races are always when ignoring the watch.  All of my PRs were set without looking at a watch.

           

          It also has the nice side benefit that I don't get flustered if a mile marker is off or GPS is screwy or my watch runs out of battery half-way through the race.   I also don't have to do math to figure out how much to adjust my paces for weather, hills, etc.

           

          Steve - I'm sorry about the bad run.  Perhaps good that you got it out of the way now rather than during your marathon?

          DW- This is really interesting. Was this always the case or did you find that you looked at the watch less as you became a more accomplished runner?  I ask because as someone who picked up running very late in life (40+) I've always used my watch and often still  look at pace charts etc to get a gauge of the what I think should be the proper pace to run.

           

          I don't think I'm up for a marathon where I don't get feedback from my watch but maybe I'll jump into a shorter race and leave the watch at home.

          5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

          darkwave


          Mother of Cats

            DW- This is really interesting. Was this always the case or did you find that you looked at the watch less as you became a more accomplished runner?  I ask because as someone who picked up running very late in life (40+) I've always used my watch and often still  look at pace charts etc to get a gauge of the what I think should be the proper pace to run.

             

            I started running in my mid 30s, so not that much younger than you.  I was stuck at a plateau that was primarily mental limitation until I decided to try racing without my watch.  It turned out to work really well for me, and so I've done it ever since.

             

            I should mention that it may help that my previous sport was equestrian, which is very much a feel and rhythm sport (get your minds out of the gutter).  So learning to run based on feel and rhythm was not as scary for me as it might be for someone else with a different background.

            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

             

            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

            JMac11


            RIP Milkman

              Steve - definitely think Mikkey has a point, more broadly about being positive. The reason is that during the marathon, you WILL hit a bad path. It is guaranteed. The question is how you work through it. If you go in with a negative mindset, it's very easy to hit that patch and go "well this is it, I'm screwed now." it's something I battle with as well and haven't fully mastered. It's very hard when that spot comes with 15+K to go.

               

              On the taper, that looks like a big drop off to me, but I know folks like darkwave like that big drop-off. Also standard with Pfitz. It's your first marathon so unfortunately it's one of those you need to try out multiple times.

               

              Hamstring cramps are interesting. I feel like I hear a lot about calf cramps for marathons (I had one during my training a few years ago for CIM, and never again). Have you had cramps before? If not, I wouldn't worry about it.

              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

               

              Mikkey


              Mmmm Bop

                 

                Great news.  I have a BQ - 4Tight lippedx which may hold up.  I may try to get in just to be a first hand witness Cal Vs Mikkey

                 

                I'm thinking "the Brawl in Beantown"

                 

                Cool. 👍

                 

                In 2017 I ran a marathon in Kingston (on the outskirts of London) and made a rookie mistake of forgetting to charge my Garmin the night before. 

                My watch went dead within 3 miles of the race and felt surprisingly ok about it…ran mostly solo and ended up finishing in 3rd place overall - 2:57.  It was a lesson for me in that it’s all about the training and wearing a watch on race day will make little difference.

                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                SteveChCh


                Hot Weather Complainer

                  JMac - it’s interesting, other people I know think it’s not a big enough drop.  I think it’s probably about right for me.

                   

                  I’ve had cramps a couple of times, but not for ages. The last time was when I opened my gels a little because I was struggling to open them with slippery hands, and all but one leaked into my belt. I’ve never had calf cramps during a run.  Sometimes overnight after a big run though.

                   

                  I’m definitely prepared for some hard moments in the race. I’ve had them on my long runs and usually just repeat ‘work through it’ in my head. The only times I’ve struggled to work through it is when it’s cramp. I probably won’t feel safe from cramp until the finish, because it comes from nowhere and can derail the whole race (not trying to sound negative!).

                   

                  Also, bring it on. The hay is in the barn

                  Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                  Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                  Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

                  JMac11


                  RIP Milkman

                    I think 80/60 percent is a "standard" taper, although I've read a lot that that came from pros who are running 120+ MPW, where big percentages like that are needed. I personally go around 90/70. I know some folks who don't taper at all until 2 weeks to go. Haven't heard much of people tapering more than 80/60!

                     

                    It sounds like you're working through it and that's what matters on the mental side. And I agree on cramps: after experiencing one in a long run, I don't know how anyone "works" through it in a marathon. They are debilitating. I'll take my stitches all day over a cramp.

                     

                    And yeah - the hay is in the barn! I'm very excited for your race. Your cycle has been insane and I just hope it all comes together on race day. Get ready for the taper tantrums we all know about with marathon training. I feel worse than I do during training until 2 days to go 

                    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                     

                     

                    DavePNW


                       

                      The coach has already roughly outlined the taper.  I've been peaking at around 105-110km per week.  This coming week is 80-85km, then the following week is 60-65km.  In race week I'm running all the same days but only 6-10km so the race week total will be about 75km, including the race.  Does that sound reasonable?

                        


                      That’s a longer & steeper dropoff than I normally do. But there are a number of taper strategies. And if you’re bothering to have a coach, you should just follow that plan anyway, and not survey the internet about it.

                      Dave

                      SteveChCh


                      Hot Weather Complainer

                        I think a reasonably steep taper given the loooong cycle I've been on, and it being my first is probably a good strategy for me.

                         

                        I'll definitely be following the plan from the coach but I'm always interested in hearing from people with more experience.  I do sometimes give him feedback that leads to minor tweaks but generally I stick very close to the plan.

                        Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                        Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                        Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

                        Ian5


                          Steve-With the miles you've done then a steeper taper is probably best,you can't add much to your fitness now,but can certainly ruin it if you do too much.

                          Mikkey-Good news on Boston, I know quite a few doing it next year,would have been tempted again if I wasn't doing Tokyo.And yes I've worn my jacket to a few local races 😀

                          I'd be fine running a shorter race with no watch,but in a marathon I'd be wary about going too fast at the start when it feels easy.

                          Just checked my majors,NYC measured the furthest but only very slightly ahead of Boston(30m) London was another 150m shorter,and Berlin was another couple of hundred less.I get a pace band for these races if I'm going for a time to make it easier.

                          5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                          flavio1980


                          Intl. correspondent

                            Steve - You did run quite a lot of very long runs, especially around and over the 3 hour duration, so it could be that.

                            And as you can see, once the muscles start failing with a cramp, there’s no amount of will in this world that will let you run forward.

                             

                            Dave/DW - One advantage of having super high arches is that shoes stay in place and I don’t even use the last holes to tie the shoe laces.

                            Just like Dave, I tie them once they arrive and never again.

                             

                            Mikkey/Steve - I agree it’s very likely that the tenser you are the more likely you are to face cramps.

                            It’s your mind playing tricks with you. Like my mind knows I can easily get through most issues, but it knows cramps is my weakness so I suppose it will play with that.

                             

                            Me - The watch is very necessary because I get way too cocky before most races and the watch is the only thing preventing me from running too fast, I'm just a massively competitive individual. So usually my races are either massive break throughs or massive failures 😂 Also why I've started racing in a superman costume so at least on those races I can forget about competing for a while and just relax and have a bit of fun.

                            My week was interesting with a first ever workout on Saturday followed by a recovery long run on Sunday.

                            The view over the Luis I bridge today was spectacular.

                            Next weekend I will pace my wife to a half marathon PR attempt. And then on the 25th I'm racing a 9.7km "10k" in celebration of the local football team Porto FC.

                             

                            Weekly for period: From: 09/05/2022 To 09/11/2022

                            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                            in ft
                            09/06 70'E 8.91 14.33 01:10:01 07:51 04:53 341
                            09/07 6x (4'@6:10-6:20 + 3'E) avg 6:10mi 3:50km 9.10 14.64 01:07:01 07:22 04:35 322
                            09/08 70'E 8.79 14.14 01:10:00 07:58 04:57 482
                            09/10 4x(2'@5:45-6:00 + 1'E) 6x(1'@5:30-5:45 + 0:30E) 6.67 10.73 00:50:01 07:30 04:40 259
                            09/11 1h40 Recovery 11.65 18.74 01:40:02 08:35 05:20 715

                            Total distance: 45.11mi

                            PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                            Up next: 10K Family race

                            Tool to generate Strava weekly

                            Ian5


                              Finished Antwerp in 3:10:04,not quite the time I wanted and a rough positive split but should be good enough for London GFA for next year.Will post a RR when I'm finished drinking and eating.

                              5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                Finished Antwerp in 3:10:04,not quite the time I wanted and a rough positive split but should be good enough for London GFA for next year.Will post a RR when I'm finished drinking and eating.

                                 

                                Congratulations!  I know it's not what you wanted, but still good to lock in a GFA.  Looks like the final km were hard fought.

                                 

                                Steve - I'm so glad we're finally in your taper.  I'm looking forward to what you can do, and glad you got the bad stuff out of the way before race day.

                                 

                                Flavio - I've become a fan of the two day workout/easy long run combo this cycle - can be surprisingly effective and doesn't seem that hard on the body.

                                 

                                Marky_Mark - I'm glad you're feeling better.

                                 

                                ***

                                 

                                51 miles running, 6 hours pool-running, and ~1000 yards swimming.

                                M: 2 hours pool-running and streaming yoga.
                                T: 9 miles easy on the treadmill (9:36) and upper body weights/core.
                                W: 14 miles, including a track workout of 3x3200m at tempo effort (14:24, 14:22, 14:22) with recoveries after each in 5:29-5:59; then 2x200m with full recovery in 49 and 49. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                                Th: 2 hours pool-running.
                                F: 9 miles very easy (9:50), four hill sprints, and upper body weights/core, followed by 2 miles very easy (9:39).
                                Sa: 17 miles, including 2x5 miles in 37:25 (7:29 pace) and 37:10 (7:26 pace); 1 mile in 8:57 between the two. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 meters recovery swimming.
                                Su: 2 hours pool-running and streaming yoga.

                                 

                                My mileage looks low this week, but that's just because of scheduling - I took 3 days in the pool this week instead of two.

                                 

                                This was my last week of training for Chicago.  I was pretty happy with this final week, as it indicated that I'm in better shape now then I was at the start of the training cycle (that's always the overall goal, isn't it).  I know that my tempo effort on Tuesday doesn't look much faster than marathon effort on Saturday, but that was weather-related - the weather sucked on Wednesday morning and was a bit better on Saturday.  I actually felt pretty good about both workouts. 

                                 

                                I have a tune-up half-marathon next Sunday, and we'll see how that goes.  Per the previous discussion, I'll taper into the half, and then taper some more.  I don't think of my taper in terms of mileage - instead, the theme of my marathon training is volume, with workouts erring on the side of slower, bigger, and longer.  Then for the taper, I err on the side of harder/faster workouts while reducing the mileage.

                                 

                                As for long runs, this cycle had 8 long runs of 17 miles or longer, with two 20s.  The breakdown:

                                Week 1: Friday track, Saturday 18 miles with 8x1:00 on/8:00 off starting in the second hour.

                                Week 2: 17 miles with 4, 3, 2, 1 miles at marathon effort.

                                Week 3: Friday track, Saturday 18 miles with 10x1:30 on/6:30 off starting in the second hour

                                Week 4: 17 miles with 2x5 miles at marathon effort.

                                Week 5: Friday track, Saturday 20 miles with 10x2:00 on/5:00 off starting in the second hour.

                                Week 6: 17 miles with 2x5 miles at marathon effort

                                Week 7: 20 miles progressive with last 6 miles at marathon effort.

                                Week 8: 17 miles with 2x5 miles at marathon effort.

                                 

                                Usually I only do a 6 week training cycle, but I've been out of stuff for a while, so an extra 2 weeks made sense.

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.