2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

BTW, after my first marathon in 2014 I had a horrible case of runners knee which made running impossible for several months. Ultimately, the strength routine I still use to this day evolved from that (squats, deadlifts, hip ab/adductor band exercises, and more recent additions of the booty sprout (HIGHLY recommend that for the glutes!) and monkey feet based stuff for hip adductor strength). But the thing that oddly helped me get over the pain at the time was just extending the leg with really strong contraction of the quad and holding it; it was a bit painful on the kneecap to do this but afterwards the knee felt much better. I would just do this several times per day, holding it for 10-20 seconds each time.

I think you're referring to working the VMO (inside quad muscle) - that's what worked for my runner's knee.

Funny story that I don't think I've shared here before.  Back when I was a very new runner in my mid-30s, I developed runners knee.  So I went to see a local sports orthopedist that also worked with the sports teams at GW University.

He checked me out, including bending my knee a few times, and then mournfully told me that I just wasn't built for running.  My left knee cap was mis-aligned, and if I insisted on running more than about 15-20 miles a week, I'd have absolutely no cartilage in that knee in about 3 years.  I needed to find another sport.

That was over a decade and many many many miles ago, and long before I ran my first marathon.  I keep that guy in mind any time I have a frustrating or depressing doctor conversation or diagnosis.

My favorite scenario where I've run my best is where I keep having one or two guys to run with, then speed up and move past them, just to join another group. That's basically what you're describing. It's very different being in first with not a soul around you AND you know you have a PR locked up.

 

It's very hard to go for an A goal in that case in my experience.

A bit of practice racing in solo situations and you get the hang of it.  IMO it's easier when there's a PR available because you can focus on racing the clock and trying to extract every second you can.  It's just a case of leaning on the intrinsic motivations when there's no obvious extrinsic ones.

You guys go to doctors?

Seriously, I haven’t seen mine for anything more than the annual (mandatory) ‘anything new (that I’ll bill you for)’ appointment.

I'm with you. I avoid them at nearly all costs. I don't even go in for check ups. I have a podiatrist friend who is a runner that I trust and there is a PT guy that I can work with as needed too. Other than that, no thanks. They are too busy to really use their talents and abilities on most patients. I find that they tend to follow protocols for diagnosis rather than actually diagnosing the problem.

For instance, there was a convention of sports docs up at Penn State a little while back to address issues related to school level athletics. Part of this addressed shin/tibia related issues (ie shin splints) and how to diagnose and treat them. What they came up with was call everything a "stress fracture" and put the kids in a boot for 6 weeks. Now, they all know that outside of a bone scan (ideal) or MRI (sometimes helpful) there is no way to actually diagnose a stress fracture. Not only that, but real stress fractures are typically 10-12 weeks of healing. BUT... this diagnosis and treatment gets results. Most kids are fine after this, so pragmatically speaking it is the correct diagnosis and treatment. It also gets kids out the door faster. FYI this info is directly from someone who was at that conference.

Personally I am not ok with that approach.

How often do you guys do strength work, and how many sets do you do? I'm wondering if I'm just not doing enough. One of the problems I also face is so much of my work at home is single leg isolated that it's a lot of work to get both legs in. Maybe I need free weights at home? It's a lot easier at a gym with free weights to do two legs at once. I just can't imagine doing the routine I have on both legs!

Mikkey - excited for the Masters, but the US Open is by far my favorite major.

Coach - definitely the overly-conservative route that drives me crazy. Sadly most physicians follow the "do no harm" principle too far.

How often do you guys do strength work, and how many sets do you do? I'm wondering if I'm just not doing enough. One of the problems I also face is so much of my work at home is single leg isolated that it's a lot of work to get both legs in. Maybe I need free weights at home? It's a lot easier at a gym with free weights to do two legs at once. I just can't imagine doing the routine I have on both legs!

 

Mikkey - excited for the Masters, but the US Open is by far my favorite major.

 

Coach - definitely the overly-conservative route that drives me crazy. Sadly most physicians follow the "do no harm" principle too far.

Strength work is a lot like running work. Back in my college days, Spence referred to is as GAS, Gradual Adaptation to Stress. As runners we struggle enough to gradually adapt our running. We are impatient, we love it too much, we can't help ourselves. We are worse though with strengthening. We either do minimally enough to feel good about ourselves or often too much too quickly.

Sets, reps, weight, etc are all relative. They are relative to your strength/abilities and even relative to the actual lift. Starting off with body weight is often a great idea, but if you aren't eventually adding more reps or ideally more weight then you are removing stress as your body adapts. There are also soft tissues (such as the achilles) that respond well to heavier weights too.

Now, I have a decent amount of experience with lifting and writing plans. However, I hate doing it myself and have way to often skipped it. Ideally a couple times a week, done well, should be enough for most people to help with injury prevention and general strength. But, lifting is not a cure all and even comes with it's own risks. Sticking with a GAS principle should help to get the most out of it.

Coach - I think where I botched it was I did this strength routine at a gym on machines I hadn't touched in over 2 years on a day where I just did a very hard workout. That doesn't follow the GAS principle you outlined. My knee probably just said enough and now is in rough shape. I am very good with GAS with running: but with weights I find I am stuck, mainly because I don't have any sort of free weights at home, which makes it hard to slowly increase weights. That's why I'm interested in people's routines at home and whether they are able to increasing resistance somehow without a bunch of equipment.

RP - Squats are a good example of what I'm talking about (and goes to what coach said): you can't just do no weight squats forever. It's way too easy. Single leg squats are much harder obviously, but that gets to my point.

How often do you guys do strength work, and how many sets do you do? I'm wondering if I'm just not doing enough. One of the problems I also face is so much of my work at home is single leg isolated that it's a lot of work to get both legs in. Maybe I need free weights at home? It's a lot easier at a gym with free weights to do two legs at once. I just can't imagine doing the routine I have on both legs!

I do lower body 2-3 times a week immediately after my hard runs (to maximize the time I can recover before my next hard run).  I do upper body 2 times a week on easy run or pool-run days.  I'll do plyometrics the day before my track workouts.

Lower body is played very much by ear, both in terms of how I feel after the hard running workout, and what is available.  I like to do either split squats or regular barbell squats, but may have to skip if the powercages are all taken, or if a quad is feeling a bit iffy.   I like single leg deadlifts, but will skip if a hamstring feels like I overdid it.

For strength/power stuff for my legs, I generally do 2-5 sets of 3-6 reps each.

On my upper body/core days, I usually do sets of series of exercises - each series will mix an upper body strength exercise, something for the core, and something that is injury prevention.  I try to do at least one "pull" and one "push" and also include at least one exercise that involves either rotation or resisted rotation.  Example:

Series 1:  5 sets of:

a) 8 pull-ups

b) 10 marching planks (hands on a ball while planking, march with each foot)

c) 10 eversion/inversion band exercises for my ankles.

Series 2:  4 sets of:

a) 6 overhead presses of dumbbells at a weight I can just barely manage.

b) 10 ball pikes (I assume the plank position with my hands on the floor and my feet on an exercise ball, and then pike my body to pull the ball in and out)

c) 10 Paloff presses using a cable machine (resisted rotation).

d) 5 single leg deadlifts with very small dumbbells in each hand - the focus here is on getting the glutes to fire.

Jay Dicharry's "Running Rewired" is a really good resource for running-related strengthwork.