Zero Runner (Read 220 times)

In the case of injury, I think it might be a reasonable supplement.

But, as a means to avoid overtraining/overuse (vs. under-recovery)? I'd rather put my non-running time towards becoming more resilient.

Just my 0.02

 I suggest you go back and study basic physics again regarding reference frames.  Yes, most treadmills cushion more and there is a small amount of reduction in effort (almost negligible, really) as you are not moving forward through the air.  But any notion that the belt is somehow moving you or helping you is definitively wrong, it's just basic physics.

It really is not necessary for you to be insulting.   I get that you do not believe the Zero Runner is worth much unless you are injured.

Here is some of the scientific research on the differences in treadmill and and outside running:

At first glance, they seem the same. A physicist might even argue that there shouldn’t be any differences, since it’s just a matter of frames of references. But it turns out that, because ground is moving, instead of the runner on top of it, there are a few key differences in your biomechanics on the treadmill, your perception of your own running, and the physiological demands placed on your body.

A study published in 1995 by Nigg, De Boer, and Fischer at the University of Calgary examined the biomechanical differences between treadmill and overground running.  Using two high-speed cameras to capture a front and rear view of a group of runners, first running on a treadmill and then running on a road, the researchers tracked the motion of their joints throughout their gait cycle. While a number of variables changed, the only one that was consistent across all subjects was foot angle at touchdown.  On a treadmill, the runners all landed with flatter feet (less ankle dorsiflexion) than when they were running on land.  Many other variables changed in a “subject specific” manner, but the changes were not consistent across all subjects. This probably indicates that we all adapt to treadmill running in our own way, and may find that it stresses our body in slightly different but unpredictable ways.

Two years later a similar study by Wank, Frick, and Schmidtbleicher in Germany extended their research by using electromyography equipment, sensors that can identify when your body activates your leg muscles and how strongly. Like Nigg, De Boer, and Fischer, this study found flatter foot placement at footstrike. But, perhaps explaining the cause, they also found that runners have a more pronounced forward body lean, shorter stride length, and a higher stride frequency. They also spent less time on the ground.

A much more recent study, published by Kong et al. in February of this year, further examined the brain’s perception of running on a treadmill.  In a very clever design, a group of runners first ran at a self-selected pace on a track for a few minutes, then immediately hopped on a treadmill and were told to adjust the speed of the treadmill to the pace they were running on the track.The only catch was that the runners were not allowed to see the pace indicator on the treadmill!  After running for a few minutes on the treadmill, they again hopped onto the track and were told to run the same speed again.  Interestingly, though the runners managed to run the same pace on both occasions on the track, their perceived speed on the treadmill was drastically different.  While the runners averaged about 6:50 pace on the track, when they adjusted the treadmill to what felt like the same pace, it was actually two minutes per mile slower!

And, in terms of physiological demand, it turns out treadmill running is easier!  Because of the lack of wind resistance, your oxygen consumption for a given pace on a treadmill will be lower than it would be overground.

 

It really is not necessary for you to be insulting.   I get that you do not believe the Zero Runner is worth much unless you are injured.

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And, in terms of physiological demand, it turns out treadmill running is easier!  Because of the lack of wind resistance, your oxygen consumption for a given pace on a treadmill will be lower than it would be overground.

Note the clear use of the word respectfully in my post.  If you intend to insult someone, do you go to the trouble of inserting said word?   My guess is not.

It is a matter of basic physics that the treadmill belt gives you no help to make running on a treadmill easier.  Your statement contradicts this.  If you feel that it is insulting for me to point out a fundamental physical fact...well...I can't do anything about that, especially when I clearly tried to be respectful about it.

I agree running on a treadmill produces gait changes.  I put 1500-2000 miles per year on my treadmill (see sig line).  I'm well familiar with that.  But none of that stuff you posted has anything to do with making running easier because of the belt moving, which was your original statement.  There is an air resistance difference, and it happens I'm the one that inserted that in the conversation.  That is, however, a rounding error on one's pace at best.  Add a percent to the grade if that concerns you.  Nothing you could possibly do on the Zero Runner will make it anything close to running.

MTA:

"While the runners averaged about 6:50 pace on the track, when they adjusted the treadmill to what felt like the same pace, it was actually two minutes per mile slower!"

Frankly that's not even believable, I would question that whole "study" and its methodology/sample size.  I run at 6:50 pace for most of my easy runs, no way in hell I'd jump on a treadmill, set it to a 8:50/mile shuffle, and call it the same effort.

 Wank, Frick, and Schmidtbleicher

Where is manfromnantucket when you need him most?

Do you think a more pronounced forward body lean, shorter stride length, higher stride frequency, and less time spent on the ground resulting from the motion of the treadmill belt as shown by the scientific studies might alter the push off required?  Oh that's right you I only think the results of these scientific studies "may be true".

It's probably a matter of degree.  Yes, definitely mechanics are slightly altered when running on a treadmill (as I just said on another thread, in fact), and it is slightly easier because there is no wind resistance.  But I'll bet your studies show that the changes are pretty slight, and therefore that the difference in push off required for overground versus TM running are also very slight.  I also find it VERY VERY hard to believe that 6:50 runners could not detect a 2:00 min/mile pace change on the TM -- that one sounds very unlikely to me.  30 seconds I could believe.  But 2 minutes?  No way.  Like many of us who have logged thousands of miles at 7:00 - 7:30 overground and have also resorted to the TM when required in bad weather, there is no way I would confuse this with 9:00 or 9:30 on the TM.  Absolutely no way.

 

It really is not necessary for you to be insulting.   I get that you do not believe the Zero Runner is worth much unless you are injured.

 

Here is some of the scientific research on the differences in treadmill and and outside running:

 

At first glance, they seem the same. A physicist might even argue that there shouldn’t be any differences, since it’s just a matter of frames of references. But it turns out that, because ground is moving, instead of the runner on top of it, there are a few key differences in your biomechanics on the treadmill, your perception of your own running, and the physiological demands placed on your body.

 

A study published in 1995 by Nigg, De Boer, and Fischer at the University of Calgary examined the biomechanical differences between treadmill and overground running.  Using two high-speed cameras to capture a front and rear view of a group of runners, first running on a treadmill and then running on a road, the researchers tracked the motion of their joints throughout their gait cycle. While a number of variables changed, the only one that was consistent across all subjects was foot angle at touchdown.  On a treadmill, the runners all landed with flatter feet (less ankle dorsiflexion) than when they were running on land.  Many other variables changed in a “subject specific” manner, but the changes were not consistent across all subjects. This probably indicates that we all adapt to treadmill running in our own way, and may find that it stresses our body in slightly different but unpredictable ways.

 

Two years later a similar study by Wank, Frick, and Schmidtbleicher in Germany extended their research by using electromyography equipment, sensors that can identify when your body activates your leg muscles and how strongly. Like Nigg, De Boer, and Fischer, this study found flatter foot placement at footstrike. But, perhaps explaining the cause, they also found that runners have a more pronounced forward body lean, shorter stride length, and a higher stride frequency. They also spent less time on the ground.

 

A much more recent study, published by Kong et al. in February of this year, further examined the brain’s perception of running on a treadmill.  In a very clever design, a group of runners first ran at a self-selected pace on a track for a few minutes, then immediately hopped on a treadmill and were told to adjust the speed of the treadmill to the pace they were running on the track.The only catch was that the runners were not allowed to see the pace indicator on the treadmill!  After running for a few minutes on the treadmill, they again hopped onto the track and were told to run the same speed again.  Interestingly, though the runners managed to run the same pace on both occasions on the track, their perceived speed on the treadmill was drastically different.  While the runners averaged about 6:50 pace on the track, when they adjusted the treadmill to what felt like the same pace, it was actually two minutes per mile slower!

 

And, in terms of physiological demand, it turns out treadmill running is easier!  Because of the lack of wind resistance, your oxygen consumption for a given pace on a treadmill will be lower than it would be overground.

Spaniels just being a prat, that's who he is.  Tells folk that people trolling them some of whom don't even have running logs, is actually "advice". Snarky comments. He must reply to almost all but his mates on this place that way.

 

Note the clear use of the word respectfully in my post.  If you intend to insult someone, do you go to the trouble of inserting said word?   My guess is not.

I did not include your entire original post in my response, so I do not have proof as to whether you had it there originally or not.  I do not recall seeing it there.  I do know that people will sometimes add the word respectfully when they mean the exact opposite.  I have also seen people go back and alter their posts to put themselves in a more favorable light with others.

I did not include your entire original post in my response, so I do not have proof as to whether you had it there originally or not.  I do not recall seeing it there.  I do know that people will sometimes add the word respectfully when they mean the exact opposite.  I have also seen people go back and alter their posts to put themselves in a more favorable light with others.

On RunningAhead you can tell, because if you modify a post then it will say "modified" at the top. As I will helpfully do with this post to demonstrate. You can see that spaniel's post was not modified. So, he was more respectful than I was. Thing is, we have been down this road too many times here lately, about treadmills being different "because the runner is not moving", and we are just really tired of it.

I was responding to bhearn, not to you.

Oh this is for me?

Do you think a more pronounced forward body lean, shorter stride length, higher stride frequency, and less time spent on the ground resulting from the motion of the treadmill belt as shown by the scientific studies might alter the push off required?  Oh that's right you I only think the results of these scientific studies "may be true".

It's that part we have a problem with. No studies show anything about differences between treadmill running and road running that are due to the fact that the belt is "moving" rather than the runner. That's all. Of course the fact that the surface is different, that there is no wind, and that the runner perceives himself as stationary may well change things. Nobody disputes that. Your wording suggests that you think the fundamental physics of running is different in a moving reference frame, and spaniel and I called you out on that. That's it. If we misunderstood your implication, then apologies. But please be more careful!

Modified to demonstrate modification timestamps.